Party NPC level progression

From my point of view, "I" am not my party leader. I am the guy sitting at my desk, in the overseer role. My party is a a bunch of characters I created, running around in a world that at best they should be seen as having grown up in, no more or less part of that world than the NPCs I add to the party during the game.

I don't dismiss the idea that a CRPG could be a Roleplaying game with the creators of the game as asynchronous DMs; that's a cool model, and one that the best CRPGs sometimes manage. I just don't see ToEE as carrying off that model. Maybe that's something we could work on, but it would mean a major reworking of every joinable NPC in the game to bring it about.

 

I agree with you to a certain extent but I'm not certain that carries through to the NPCs. The NPCs should be as independant as possible from player intervention. There are plenty of issues with joinable NPCs and I certainly think that we need to have a good discussion on how best to implement them in all aspects. if nothing else, it will help game balance a great deal.

 

I don't disagree entirely, I'm just not sure that I'd bother taking any NPCs in ToEE if I couldn't control them as well as PCs. There needs to be some trade off that makes them worth the effort beyond a shiny magic sword for talking them into joining.

I was thinking about what keeps me looking at ToEE differently than I looked at Planescape or BG1&2, and I think it comes down to the level and type of NPC interaction.

The NPCs show a little bit of personality in ToEE, especially in the lead up to joining for Meleny, death cries, and a few other exclamations and dialogs here and there ("Be on the lookout for stupid people"). Still, it's nothing like the amount of personality we saw in the BG NPCs, especially post mods. ToEE NPCs don't initiate dialogs with the PC save on a couple of area triggers, the PC doesn't get many choices in his brief dialogs with NPCs, and most of the NPCs don't really have an agenda that comes out in the game even when it's there in the module.

A full ToEE NPC Project, like the BG1 Romance Project or the various BG2 NPC projects, with dialogs, new music, scripting etc would be a huge improvement to the game, but it would also be a massive job.

 

Pretty much agree with you here. Why would anyone take Spugnoir - especially if he nicks every darned wizard scroll? We need to have a community discussion on how to take the game forward but as you say, it's such a big task, it will probably have to wait until after KotB is done, dusted and polished to a fine sheen and then when the active modders have had time to take a break from their hard work on KotB.

 

Well, I too think that they should be improved... and
be controlled just like in Baldur's Gate... You could do almost
everything with them, except for taking their family heirlooms,
& etc. I also agree that they should react to what the players
are doing, especially when it's something they don't agree with.
What they need is fleshing out, just like OB said. The other thing
that would make them useful is not screwing up the game by not
being affected by dialogue triggers...

 

wizgeorge throw me the game doc in the face, so my answer is accordingly to this doc, compared to the doc it's a bug that they don't level up themselves any more.

 

The documentation is lying to you.

 

Yup. Call it at least 4-5 new extended dialogs per NPC, plus scripting, and maybe even 1 added quest per NPC.

And yes also to the nod to Ted's playful NPCs, which brought out a lot of the little personality that was there to start with.

Fair enough, and I usually do. I only really take Mel and sometimes Otis and Elmo these days (Mel because the developers had time to make her at least a bit interesting, Otis and Elmo for their roles in Desperate Housewives). DH did a lot to salvage those characters for me. I briefly ran through with most of the NPCs right after playful NPCs came out.

 

You don't know the rule? If a bug is in the doc then it's a feature. :eyebrow:

 

No I disagree, BG is just an example of party NPC system, not the only one that can be good. In BG you had only one PC so the solution for this game to have party NPC almost as PC is logical. But I played various different systems, if as much time and money than put in BG series has been put in those alternative I bet they should has been even more fun.

ToEE is obviously an unfinished game, empty areas, wide outside area with no details, later area in the game that become a little repetitive, too many big bugs, many weak interface design choice, and so on including unfinished party NPC system.

 

I didn't say you have to have only one PC... but I meant the
full control of NPCs... Though it would be cool if you could
decide whether you want to have as many NPCs as you want
without the need to change it in the Front-end or run the game
solo, or with your own party...

 

Ok but just fix the auto level progression of some of them is so tough to do? I feel a little frustrated to have explored the original system only in one game then switch to Co8 and lost an option to get previous NPC with some level up fix and some improvements but still have the original looting and auto level up. That should be only an option. In fact the Front end help let you think that because it mentions that Humble NPC bring no more loot and manual level up but it doesn't as it's in default Co8.

 

I quote BG because it's one rare CRPG that put a lot of time in design of party NPC. I'm sure that I'd love alternate systems where you don't have full control of party NPC. Even if I never saw any CRPG with party NPC so much polished than in BG series, I saw other systems that really shine despite quite minor in comparison with BG series.

When you already have 5 or 6 PC it's more than enough and then NPC joining the party could be much more NPC. The only point that they shouldn't be NPC is if the fights are quite tactical then it's probably better to have full control on them during fight, all movement and action and eventually weapon switching and eventually ability to lend them some fight items (potions, scroll, summoning items, and so on).