Co8 5.0.0 Beta - The Big 3; A poll

OK - I have read and re-read the threads on this. I'm not a big modder (mostly 'cause between work, school and Kung Fu who has time <sigh>) But I used to DM (and also write) - a lot. In my very humble opnion, what has kind of happened is what used to happen on occasion in my PnP games when I would DM for a group that had players who were also DMs. We would end up waisting valuable hours of play time arguing about different details or why something was a certain way. Finally when it all came down to it - I was the one responsible for making the final decision - because, lets face it, I couldn't please everyone - AND I did have my OWN vision of what was going on. I mean, yeah it was important for the players to have fun, no doubt about that. But it was important for me to have fun too, and to have my work appreciated, or else why was I waisting my time?!?!?

That said - I really like the community approach on this forum - and for this game. It really looks like it works most of the time. At the moment, I personally feel kinda like we are getting hung up on a detail that we don't have to be hung up on. I also hate to see time get thrown away that was already invested in an encounter that while difficult yes - isn't impossible and isn't unreasonable, by any stretch.

I believe there are three ways to approach the issue of "The Three Amigoes":

#1 - We can have a lot of discussion about a lot of different possible ways that the scenario could be played. All of them fun scenarios, all of them cool -- All of them requiring new scripts and modding (which takes away from other things our generous modders could be spending their limited time on) -- Also - ALL of them Different and All of them with an aspect Someone doesn't like (just like the arguments we had around the dining room table when I was in the early days of DMing).

#2 - We, as a community, can come up with the back story that fits the CURRENT (not to be confused with currant, of which the red kind is my favorite) scenario and focus the modders on any bugs around that scenario that do make it impossible for some (or too difficult if people really think it is too tough).

#3 - We can accept it as is, because there are a myriad of reasons why the scenario could have played out the way it does - and maybe even the Three Amigoes don't realize that instead of simple Brigands they thought they happened upon and recruited, they have trained fighters with them that were waiting to join their group based on a premonition Lareth recieved from Lolth, but it was really Ziggy pretending to be Lolth all the time and he is yet another Pawn in her bid for conquest.... etc, etc. Who knows - except the DM
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I personally feel the best solution would be to go with option #2. There are some really creative minds on this forum, and If we spend the time figuring out a bakstory that works for the scenario as it Currently plays it will require less new scripting. It will also mean the modders can focus on enhancing the complexity of the game or encounter without throwing away work that has been already done. And it won't feel like we have a ton of people DMing after the fact. It will feel more like a community effort.

Right now, to me, IMHO, it feels like we are working on option #1 - which also means more time before there is a final version to play and less time before there are other cool mods -- and I feel like this isn't a huge glaring issue where anyone would have to say "Wait, how the heck did that Troll Paladin end up riding an Ancient Red Dragon out of the ocean to defend that Coven of Sea Hags who where building that Iron Golem with 6-arms. WTF!?!?!?!?"

The encounter as it stands IS a hard encounter (I think it should be, since their aren't enough hard encounters). On the surface, maybe it doesn't make a ton of sense to everyone. But maybe that is because there are wrong assumptions that are made in response to questions. And because of the transparency in TOEE, I think we are so used to knowing everything that has been going on "behind the scenes" we tend to not question why things are not as they seem, but instead assume it is wrong or a mistake. I was devious when I DMd, and my players got used to some things that they initialy thought didn't make sense, but they soon realized was an onimous shadowing of danger still to come, or a clue to what they should be preparing for down the road.

Anyway - sorry for the UBER long post. I hope no one is offended that a relative newbie to the community is weighing in so heavily on this. At the least, if I didn't piss everyone off oke: maybe it will give the people in the community something else to consider....

- JTL

 

I personally don't care what is ultimately decided, as long as the final encounter is balanced for the party level and doesn't have glaring logic holes. For me, my issues with the encounter as it originally appeared in 5.0 was:

1. During the dialogue before the fight, the PCs claimed Lareth was dead, even though he wasn't and at the point I encountered the ambush, my characters didn't even know who Lareth was. This is a logic hole.
2. The encounter was way too powerful for PCs likely to use the secret exit for the first time. It wasn't a hard fight, it was an impossible fight. A properly balanced encounter should not result in a TPK (total party kill) 3 times in a row. Leaving it as it was effectively prevented the player from using the secret exit until he had gained sufficient levels to win the encounter, which meant the player had to do a lot of unnecessary running around back and forth to the main entrance.

Based on above, the easiest fix would be to just flag the encounter to only spawn once Lareth was dead. The dialogue would then become logically consistent and the PCs would be of a level capable of dealing with the encounter, though it would still be a tough fight coming off of fighting Lareth and his spiders.

Other fixes, as have been suggested and attempted, involve changing the dialogue and make-up of the encounter. In the end it doesn't matter, as long as the goal is to make things consistent and balanced.

 

Agreed with Kalshane.

 

Well - I def agree that the logic hole needed to be fixed. I figured that pretty much goes without saying, and my understanding from the other threads was that that was going to get worked... so -- yeah. My vote is def for keeping the encounter as is, as long as it does spawn after you've killed Lareth.

My understanding was that some of the community members had some issues with the fight from a RP perspective as well (specifically the levels of some of the big three's "back up", etc).

 

I prefer the original first encounter after Lareth is actually dead.
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From dialogue provided by Gaear and Spike, I would suggest reasons of both greed [loot] and vengence [anger] are involved.
* In the dialogue launching the fight, the party mentions they cleared the moathouse [all evil has been removed, including Lareth] and the fight begins. At that point, it's all about anti-righteous, unholy wrath and killing the do-gooders; the idea of obtaining loot becomes secondary.
Note: Spike suggested to CtB that this concept was different from what he and Gaear intended and wanted the situation to be an Armed Robbery, not a "You killed Lareth!" thing. (I think this is correct.)
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The current encounter should be whatever evil help the three amigos could find at the time - brigands, fighters, monks, whatever [located in or have close proximity to Hommlet]. (easy to follow; less complexity, little or no thinking required)
* Nulb and the Temple are somewhat distant and would also involve inter-faction politics. Beyond the physical distance, the Temple or Nulb factions would have to want to support Lareth, a male Human Cleric follower of the Drow Lolth who is the puppetmaster behind the Moathouse - Lareth is outside their faction; Lareth opposes Zuggtmoy and Iuz at every step; ToEE really doesn't care much about Lareth and the little sandpile he commands. (Hedrack would probably, himself, laugh at the death of Lareth and cut jokes about Drow religion).
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(1) Can you say Drow?
(2) Drow don't fool around and play games. When needed, Drow just kill it. (Only let it breathe and live if it furthers a purpose of Lolth.)
(3) Lareth must live! But, he dies prior.. [The ambush should take place the first time a party leaves the Moathouse using the secret exit, but alas, they are too late and oops!..]
(4) It does not matter whether PCs are damaged or not.
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Agree? Disagree? Indifferent? Rant? Don't care?

!!! Please vote and post your 2 cents.

 

@JamesTheLion - When I say 'agreed with Kalshane', I mean I also agree that I really don't mind who is there as long as it is after Lareth is dead.

Play balancing issues can come along after that. It's important that check is there first to see how to then balance the encounter with input from gurus like Lord Spike on what is reasonable.

It's what betas are for. I just don't like to see people pushing themselves too hard trying to get this kind of thing sorted when things could take place at a slower pace. Leads to frayed tempers, misunderstandings, modder burn out and an unhappy atmosphere in the community.

This encounter can be mulled and chewed over for a few weeks provided a check is put in. It means modders can then focus on bug fixes whilst people decide how best to tweak the encounter.

 

I accidentally voted for the wrong choice. Place my vote in the it was fine the way it was category. The only issue I had was with the dialog (I hadn't killed Lareth yet). I actually like the idea of it happening the 1st time you use the backdoor. It sure surprised the heck out of me when it happened. I thought and still think it was an excellent piece of modding.

 

1: You're right. He's a male human cleric. Now, above, it's written better and shown in brown. Thanks.

2: Yes, they would want and like to kill the three amigos. Only if a seperate Armed Robbery scenario would be made [the three amigos removed from the Ambush], well - for talking purposes in only that situation, I would kind of like to see the ambush party consist of just Drow, something different and cool as a surprise. And, if there's both scenarios and no Drow used, that's okay, too. It'd be nice for something cool, I think.

3: [...but alas, they are too late and oops!..] This was written to mean the ambush party arrives too late and arrives after Lareth's demise. (We agree.)

 

Sounds good to me, Gaear. As I said before, the encounter is beautifully put together with the existing dialogue and could easily be assumed to be a part of the original game, rather than a Mod. The missing flag just made it problematic.

 

Yeah!.. WooHoo! *w00t* :joy: