Orion's ToEE complete fixes - beta (part A)

sanity from the newbie.. something about out of the mouths of babes..

 

I have played Orion's mod some. I will have more time in the next 2 or 3 weekends.

 

Nothing but the truth, as disparaging as it may seem from time to time. This is a situation he created. All anyone has asked is for is respect: for the game, the community & the work others have done and are doing. He does what he likes, and others have to clean up the mess. Nice. He should get his stuff straight (at least as much as possible) before he uploads it for general consumption; if he needs advice or assistance, well, there never has been a shortage of that here. I don't know a single person on this forum who came here knowing all about ToEE modding; many of the famed modders here still get it wrong now & again...but they help each other out to make the best possible 'product' for those choosing to use it. That's just not the case with Orion, and it never has been.

You should read all of the posts, not just the ones from people you agree with. This has all been said before, and in this very thread, no less.

 

Spike i have read ALL the post so far in this forum and as the subjected had wondered off a bit(i take responsiblity for my part in the non linear side venture.) i was appluading the return to ToEE issues as much as his suggesting the possiblity of a glass maybe being half full rather than half empty approach.


but do not think i did not hear..(read is more accurate) Ted amoung others say early on they would look at it and advocate some portions inclusion in some fashion..in some future co8 release because some of the stuff had merit..etc..

 

I have examined the changes Orion made. IMHO, as a game balance guru and nitpicker, the following are the important (and rule-accurate) modifications that should stay in, or be incorporated in the next Co8 mod package.

--Skill point recalculations.
--Saving throw recalculations.
--Change of humanoid monster bonus HD to character class levels... though in most situations, the assigned class should be an NPC class such as warrior, expert, or adept.
--Replacement of missing feats for animals and monsters, especially Weapon Finesse for high Dexterity animals.
--Recalculation of base statistics for monsters with character classes (average joes should be either 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 or 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8... BUT all official D&D material has long insisted that NPCs and monsters with PC character class levels should use the "elite array" of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).
--Recalculation of skill points and feats for humanoid NPCs. Many seemed to be lacking the extra stat points normally gained at level multiples of 4, as well.
--Ensuring that magical weapons always ignore "x/magic" damage reduction, no matter what kind of strange artifact they may be (*cough*finalwordswords*cough*).
--Summoned fiendish and celestial creatures, especially the Lantern Archon, needed repairs badly, as did many monster attacks (for instance, elemental slams at same attack bonus, monsters gaining full Strength damage bonus on secondary attacks, etc.).

If no one else can help winnow out these changes, I *sigh* might volunteer. But don't tell my wife. :ninja:

--Blair
blair@afaproject.org
"Yes, we'd like the Special Heavy Beam Cannon, please."

 

You're of course welcome to have a look at the changes 0rion79 made, but you'd better check with Allyx first, since he's been busy with 0rion's stuff too lately.

 

Excellent fixes.

Missing feats is dangerous ground, since we have no basis to decide what they should be, and opinions will vary.

Too weak for whom?

I see no reason to change ability scores to use Elite rolls. The most correct would be using 3d6 + race modifiers to every creature, and thus keeping what the original game had would be most in spirit with the game imho.

Also an excellent fix based on 3.5 rules.

Did you change the stats on the Hydra to a cryo-Hydra based on the color of the creature?

Also, on the skeletal priest change, I have no problem with it either way.

Why? aside from the original ToEE descriptions, but I for one would accept the original game designers views on this over a fan based mod. Especially with the adage "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".

Again changes for no reason other than to change things.


All in all, I see some of these changes as wonderful fixes of rule issues (That I would appreciate in a new Co8 patch), but most of them as unnecessary.

 

How about splitting this into two mods? One for core 3.5 compliance (and roll those into the standard install), and one for optional changes.

I'm with Orion79 on the Elite template. It seems to fit the 3.5 rules better. Anyway, Livonya's mod already goes further than that with boss types, so this would be reducing the difficulty back to 3.5 standard, for better or worse.