Paladin's Cove beta release, and feedback

Excellent observation. The DC for Charm Person is indeed decreased by 5, for reasons stated in PHB page 209:

"If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw."​

Technically, this should be done as a +5 bonus to the target's saving throw, but for the ToEE game engine that's not easily done during combat. So instead, it's simulated by decreasing the DC of the spell by 5. This explains the decrease from 15 to 11 ( Also, your computation shows it only decreased by 4, but maybe there's an extra +1 for some reason not recorded on the screen).

This is also the case for Tasha's Hideous Laughter, again, from the PHB page 292:

"A creature whose type (such as humanoid or dragon) is different from the caster’s receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn’t “translate” well."​

Why you saw the DC=19, I'm not sure. It gave you a +4 for some reason. You'd have to give me the exact circumstance, and what creature the target was.

Ultimately, the game does a bad job of showing why a DC increases or decreases. In fact, it doesn't show it at all, so you have to guess sometimes. But as I said in my post above, I can assure you it's not "random".

The saving throw for a Bard's Fascinate is done totally different than a spell, becasue it's not a "spell", it's a spell-like ability:

"The bard makes a Perform check, and the target can negate the effect with a Will saving throw equal to or greater than the bard's check result."
​

So the DC against it will be:

d20 + Bard's Perform skill rank + Charisma mod​

That's why you are seeing a great variance in the DC against Fascinate, because a d20 roll is involved in the computation of the DC. It could vary by up to 20 points based on the Perform skill check roll. So in this case, the DC actually is random.

These are all existing bugs, that may or may not have been fixed by Temple+. I'll look into them and see if they truly do already exist, or if it's something I did to newly introduce those bugs.

 

I stucked in Chapter 2 with 2 quests, someone help me:
1. A thief and the Knight: i got 3rd message "Let's FORGE another deal" but have no clue to do next.
2. Where's Waldon: i found him at the Inn near Roxie, but the quest can not completed.

PS: new T+ seem work well, so fun

 

Just wanted to post again after installing PC on my "new" crappy laptop and enjoying the hell out of it. I suck and am getting stomped so hard that after playing for around 8 hours my 5 PCs are only at 528 exp. I've still yet to win the battle with the dire bats or the wererats, and I died to attrition when I attempted the Crossroads quest.

I did add two NPCs, Kaleela and Pilzner, so I may retry the fights with some different tactics and see how it goes. I suspect the wererats would be easier if I'd brought a barbarian with a two-handed weapon so I could do more than 1-3 damage when I actually connect but that's life I guess.

I'm really looking forward to the next release Marc, and thank you for making this freaking gem. I wonder if Tim Cain has played it?

Edit: Tasha's and command made the wererats doable, and Kaleela's inspire courage was enough to deal with the dire bats. I managed to make it to level 2!

 

I use available PC of game. All my PCs are:
- 1 bard for song, charm person, talking, fascinate to hold most dangerous foe.
- 1 cleric for scribe scroll to use: healing, buff, AoE, tanker with Meld into Stone, inflict wound to tough foe like as Wererat,...
- 1 paladin for tank, dealing dmg
- 1 rogue for lockpick, sneak attack, tumble, UMD for healing scroll, buff,...
- 1 ranger for Survival, sneak and Track to detect enemy, so I can plan for good tactic, also ranger make good dealing dmg with far distant, easy to kill any mage quickly
PS: my tip for starting game in low level: all char using melee, ranged weapon get big disadvantage at low level, use ten pole quarterstaff for good reach, do some small quest to get level 2, scribe many scroll healings

 

Sorry I've been delinquent checking in here. Weekend stuff, best weekend of the year for NFL.
My condolences to any Lions fans.
Anyways...

Spoiler

There's a forge nearby where you found that note, where some dwarves hang out. It gives off light you can read by at night.

Spoiler

This is an oversight on my part. I'll fix it. I'm assuming you gave him directions home, and didn't escort him directly to the inn? The only way to complete the quest right now is to escort him home in your group. There's no way to complete the quest otherwise. I think I was debating how to handle the case where you give him directions home, and I never got back to it and finished it up.

There was a time I was going to make him a comical character who gets perpetually lost, and you keep encountering him in your adventures, even if you give him directions, since he go knocked in the head and can't remember things. But then I made it so he gets home if you give him directions, but I forgot to add way to complete the quest that way.

I'll change Roxie's dialog to account for this.

Good find!

 

Thanks for the kind words, and hanging in there. As I mention to others, even though a lot of this mod is very completed, it's still very beta, and all the reports are helping immensely. I'll be putting out a second beta in February with fixes to all the bugs reported so far, and some other changes that will help with game play.

One fix which will help, is the addition of an in-game narrator, who appear periodically with "advice". This won't be overbearing, maybe 10 times in total. But near the start of the game, he will suggest the best order to approach the Chapter 1 quests for party survival at low levels. I think this is needed for new groups, especially in chapter 1 where first level parties can get crushed easily. But even with that, I want to leave the player the freedom to do the quests in any order they choose. But many first-time players will get caught in some tough places like you are.

Here is my recommend order for quests at first level, listed safest first.

Spoiler

Most will have a minor combat encounter which a starting group can handle
with a balanced party with well-chosen first level spells.

"Here Kitty Kitty"

- see Guildmaster of The Guard, in Guildhall
​

"A Thief in the Night"

- see Captain Jorrla
- Day, found by her ship on the west docks
- Night, found in The Flute + Lyre Inn
​

"All the Beautiful Colors"

- see Guildmaster of Magic, in Guildhall
- leads to a totally safe quest "Silk and Sand"​

"She's Good With Wood"

- see Guildmaster of Trade, in Guildhall
- leads to quest "Big Love", with avoidable combat
​

"Eviction Notice"

- see Captain Borrison
- Day, found by his ship on the octagon dock
- Night, found in The Tavern
​

If you are still at first level after all that, these 3 quests would come next on the
safety scale, but the combat may be more challenging for first level parties.

"Armed Escort"

- see the Guildmaster of Seamen, in Guildhall
​

"This Old House"

- see Guildmaster of Craftsmen, in Guildhall
​

"Bats in the Attic"

- visit the Church of Rao
​

Also, if you need more muscle at lower levels, the brother and sister fighters in the Tavern are there for that reason. You can use them to survive early on , then dump them once you gain more power.

As for the were-rats, I've made a few changes to make them more survivable.

Spoiler

- The first few encounters with them have been tamed down a bit.
- Silver weapons are now available, with a little effort. (Thank for Ted's recommendation)
- An easy "listen" check gives warning to to boss battle before you stumble upon it.

Also, with Teds recommendation, I've eased back on the attic dire bats for low levels.

 

Yes, scrolls are essential, and super-cheap for first level spells. I highly recommend keeping as many first level scrolls as you can afford. These are necessary since Gygax fell in love with the Vancian magic systeme of spell memorization (don't get me started), and makes even medium sized adventures at low level almost impossible.

Especially these:

Cure Light Wounds (these can damage pesky undead too, like shadows)
Magic Missile (gets thru were-rats DR)
Sleep
Charm Person
Mage Armor (a monk's best friend)
Shield
Expedition Retreat, Longstrider
Burning Hands, Color Spray

 

Thanks, Marc. I managed to make it to level three with my PCs, though my paladin died and on being raised lacked the exp. to be 3rd level; not sure if it's a bug or not but he still has his 3rd level HP and feat (cleave).

I also encountered a bug with the

Spoiler

rust monster. The first time I killed it, there was no treasure. The second, there was. Both times I ended up dying before progressing the quest and on my current run it also wasn't there.

I know there's been discussion of it in the thread, but I can't remember whether I'm locked out of progressing from Chapter 1. Not a big deal, because I've still got a lot to do and I'm going to run through Paladin's Cove again when you release the next version in February.

I don't think I've encountered any bugs not already mentioned and I continue to be amazed at how polished this adventure is. The encounter design - even with the issues raised by others - is top notch. I don't know if you have an interest in professional game design, but you've sure as hell got something for your resume if you do.

 

Unfortunately, that's the way ToEE has always done Raise Dead. It lacks the ability to remove levels, or gain "negative levels" (although I think Temple+ has fixed this, or is on the verge of fixing it). So when a PC is raised, they keep their current level, but their XP's get reduced to half way between the current level and level below it. It DOES look odd that you're still level 3, and only have 2000 XP. But that's how it works.

Most treasure is randomized in Paladin's Cove. (It was actually the reason I started this mod in the first place.) It's rolled-up for each NPC and monster on an given map, whenever you enter that map for the first time. So if you reload the game and re-enter the map for the first time again, the treasure will be different.

OK, I'm assuming you're talking about the rust monsters in the rat tunnels, under the warehouse.

Spoiler

Full spoiler.

In that encounter, there is always one primary rust monster in that location. If you loot him, he always has one of the 5 glyphs you need to find for the Evian Riss. That should ALWAYS be there (both the rust monster and the glyph). If not we have a problem.

Sometimes, there will be a second rust monster added to the encounter, to make it more challenging for higher level parties. That's based on the average level of the party. His treasure is 1-4 gems.

If any of those two guys is totally devoid of any treasure, then something is going wrong.

This was the problem: While you only need to complete the 3 main quests to get to chapter 2: Chapter one ends when you complete the quests "Lost in His Own Museum", "At a Crossroads", and "The Unknown".

There's an exception. If you DO ACCEPT another quest, you have to finish it before progressing. I didn't male that clear enough when you try to start a chapter. I've made it abundantly clear in the next release.

Thanks again for the kind words.

 

I had a feeling the raise dead issue was not a bug. Since then I also managed to get my rogue killed, and the issue I spoiled will, in fact, lock me out of progressing. Having said that, I should be able to load a save where I did get the rune; it'll just mean back-tracking for four or five game hours (and a dozen or so "life-hours")

I may start over and bring a slightly beefier party with me. I think I'd have had less trouble with a few encounters if I'd had a barbarian using a two-handed weapon that would average enough damage per-hit to get past some pesky DR/silver.

Something else I'm really digging is the relative frequency of dialog options that appear to open up if a character has a certain rank in some skills or is a certain class. I invested a lot of ranks in diplomacy and sense motive on my paladin and he regularly gets distinct responses in discussions with NPCs. I can't remember right now which dialog it was but when I initiated it with my cleric of Pelor, I had an entirely new response to one NPC as opposed to the Paladin. Very nice.

Maybe too nice, actually, as my work productivity has suffered since I've started playing this module.

 

I played a different 3.5 D&D video game (Knights of the Chalice) and a double Cleric, double Wizard party in that game had EVERYONE learn or start with Scribe Scroll for how useful the feat was! I told the game author about this and he made an achievement to beat the game without using it.

 

I can't speak for that game, but in ToEE I wouldn't say it makes it more challenging, it just makes it less annoying. When you use scrolls, you can make it thru many encounters without having to rest, or run back to the inn. If you DON'T use scrolls, then you have to rest after every few encounters, which really breaks the feel and flow of the quest.

Like, after one initial encounter the party goes...

"Whew that was tough! Close call guys! We survived the first room on the first level of Lost Maze of Ralikos. Only 250 more encounters to go. But the spellcasters used most of their spells on that fight, so now we all have to make camp, brew the coffee, pull out our bed rolls, and sleep for 8 hours."​

Then after one or two more rooms, repeat.

 

RPGs and many games in general adopted a motto of 'auto heal the PCs to full out of combat' because people want to be at full resources!

 

Have you tried the sequel to KOTC? It has a lot more class/race combinations and it's every bit as hard as the first one.

Edit to add some detail about Knights of the Chalice and the sequel. These are two D&D 3.5 tactical combat games made by a single Frenchman. They are light on story and the first has limited class/race options (fighter, cleric, mage if I recall correctly). Both are punishingly difficult if you play them blind and merely difficult if you know what to expect and min/max your party. The second game adds multiple classes and sub-classes, additional races (and sub-races that have benefits and downsides) and a larger selection of spells and spell-like abilities such as psionics (though in practice psionics are mostly just using different names for spell effects).

As far as combat goes, if it's in the rules, it's in the game: grapple, trip, push, pull, etc. There are encounters where the optimal action is to push enemies into environmental hazards before they do the same to you.

The sequel is equally difficult and really forces the player to use consumables. I have not played the game without crafting also, which is extremely robust, but I guess it could be done.

I think the games are not on most peoples' radar because to be blunt, they look like ass. The first game was designed to be played with static tokens, but Pierre (the developer) ended up adding sprites that are slightly more detailed than those in the gold box games. Last I checked, though, he hadn't added some sprites for some of the more esoteric PC races such as half-giant and his version of the Thri-Kreen. The "look" of the games, and the fact that Pierre chose a pretty steep price point, means they are primarily of interest to die-hard grognards with masochistic tendencies (if that's not redundant).

He's still patching KOTC2 and also working on another adventure module in the KOTC2 engine that, given his pace, will probably be out in 2027. Having said that, there's also what I understand to be a very robust toolkit that comes with the game and at least one modder who previously focused on the Iceblink engine, Dorateen, has ported his adventure to it.

KOTC/KOTC2 are the only games that compete with ToEE for the title of "best implementation of 3.5 edition combat rules," with ToEE being the better game overall but lacking some of the options Pierre managed to put in. After you finish Paladin's Cove, Marc, i suggest you pick up KOTC2 and give it a whirl. Caveat: the tutorial is actually slightly harder in places than the full campaign, so don't be too put off if you choose to try it first.

I am now stumped in a fight against some stone berserkers. I really thought I had it figured out after wiping on my first try. I figured I'd just load my cleric up with "shatter," but nope. I can see getting through the fight by pre-buffing but boy howdy it's going to be tough. Particularly since the other enemies in that fight are immune to fire damage, which is my only real source of AoE apart from the 2nd level cleric spell that does sonic damage. Am I missing a specific weakness in either enemy, or am I just going to have to pray to the RNG gods?

Edit to also follow up on the above: I saw from earlier in the thread that I wasn't the only one stuck on this encounter, and I have concluded that I just need to get my five-person, level 6 party better equipped and prepared, so I'm heading back to P. Cove to pick up a couple of things, scribe some scrolls and probably craft an item or two. Still having a blast with this adventure.