So, TemplePlus exists.

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Endarire, Feb 29, 2016.

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  1. florian1

    florian1 Established Member Supporter

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  2. Thorsson

    Thorsson Established Member

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    I believe that how it works is that they slide the XP needed two levels down, so to get to level 2 they need 6,000 XP and then another 4,000 XP to get to level 3, etc.
     
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  3. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    Humans are not immune to sleep, or at least they shouldn't be according to RAW.
    I'll test in game to be sure TOEE doesn't give them this ability.
     
  4. Thorsson

    Thorsson Established Member

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    I know it's poorly written, but it's pretty clear that he was referring to Drow, rather than Humans. It's a nonsense what he's written, in that Sleep immunity is not bizarre (Elves don't sleep) and I think is the only immunity.

    Basically though, what we are seeing is justifcation, something Humans are remarkably adept at. He wants to play a Drow but he doesn't like the ECL. However, he doesn't want to admit that removing the ECL is kind of cheating, so he's trying to justify why it's fair.

    It's also funny that the suggestion for removing the penalty is to start at level 3, which gives the Drow an even bigger earlier boost, but will multiply the effect of the ECL Penalty in the longer term (due to lower XP rewards from the higher level).
     
  5. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    V1.0.65 is out now. All the new feats and subraces were made by @_doug_ :)

    I've also laid the foundations for an Arena "campaign", including custom on-the-fly AI strategies. I hope to have something releaseable it in the next few months.
     
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  6. Pygmy

    Pygmy Established Member Supporter

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    Thank you very much for all your hard work - and to Doug too.
     
  7. StrontiumDog

    StrontiumDog Established Member

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    Yes, I was referring to the drow/elven immunity to sleep. Basically, the sleep spell, as I recall, only affects characters up to 4th level(unless ad &d 3.5 changed this?), so an immunity to sleep is hardly a big bonus - mind you, the spell revisions mod for the IE PC games did try to rectify this by making all levels prone to the sleep spell. As regards fairness, I have always found ad&d much easier playing as a human. The extra stat bonuses are usually countered by the stat penalties in nonhumans, the humans get vast numbers of extra skill points as well as 1 extra feat. That seems unfair to me.

    Thanks for pointing out the absurdity of my starting the nonhuman characters at a higher level at the start of the game. I had thought that an early boost to xp might counter the loss of xp later on, but I see what you mean. Ah well, I'll just have to use levelup to make the characters the same level as humans/half-orcs.
     
  8. Thorsson

    Thorsson Established Member

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    Why do you keep saying "humans get vast numbers of extra skill points", when it is actually 1 per level? It's a minor advantage on, say, a Rogue or a Ranger; it's rather more useful on a Cleric, but it's hardly a game breaker. A bigger advantage, if you choose to make use of it, relates to Favored Class.

    Moreover, Humans are actually supposed to have an advantage over other Races, because that has always been the underlying theme in D&D settings - there should be more of them, because Humans are more adaptable.
     
  9. Badsirbrian

    Badsirbrian Member

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    Best way to overcome this legitimately without cheating is start your drow out solo and get some experience doing the town quests. My last runthrough was with a drow and after I got some experience on him I expanded my party at the inn. It is a huge penalty to use a drow, not worth it really the way toee unfolds, those advantages apply more for a real pen and paper campaign.
     
  10. Thorsson

    Thorsson Established Member

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    Next run through I'm going to try an ECL party - it should make the game a fun challenge. Embrace the ECL!
     
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  11. Badsirbrian

    Badsirbrian Member

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    Last one I did a drow and a duegar with some evil priests , 9 skeletons and zombies up front. temple+ max enemy HD and enemies can hear across rooms for a challenge. Later I had the 3 undead wizards from the last arena of heroes match dominated... they need to be up front or they will friendly fire you to death with spells.
     
  12. StrontiumDog

    StrontiumDog Established Member

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    Humans also get 4 extra skill points at the start, as I recall. The extra feat humans get is also vital. True, humans have always been viewed as being superior, like in Tolkien where all the magical races are seen as being part of a dying world of magi, but, imo, that seems a little racist to me.
     
  13. StrontiumDog

    StrontiumDog Established Member

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    The idea of using a drow at the start as a lone unit sounds cool.Hmm, I could always also use TCE if the subrace characteristics are expressed as feats.
     
  14. Thorsson

    Thorsson Established Member

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    Yep, the same as Drow, with their +2 Int.

    Vital is a bit strong. Drow get benefits that are worth more than two Feats - a net two +2 increases to Stats and Spell Resistance; plus a couple that are similar to a Feat in strength, Darkvision and Keen Sense, plus all the extras, such as several Weapon Proficiencies, sole access to Arcane Archer, bonuses to Skills and Saves. Really there is no comparison; this has been shown on MP servers for NWN & NWN2, such that most have some sort of restriction on playing them.

    The only issue in ToEE is that there is a finite pool of normal XP and grinding the extra would be very tiresome. But then with more powerful characters you should be able to get by with fewer of them and thereby make up the difference.
     
  15. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    +2 Int is better than the bonus skill points, as it also increases languages known and your maximum Wizard spell level, and bonus spells for high ability scores.
     
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