Zert: First Level Fighter?

i think Liv said she lowered some of thier starting levels in mod 1.0....i remember someone asking why fruella was suddenly 1st instead of 3rd

 

Well, answering in themrs of role-playing, I may tell you that a level 1 character with 0 XPs actually may be so because
- he lost a level after being resurrected
- we gained his first level comming from level 0 apprendice (see DM manual for rules.
- effectively he was a coward and escorted caravans without effectively fighting or has jyust been VERY lucky

 

or he is a liar consider though, that one doesn't have to be a fighter or a warrior or any class really to be a caravan guard. He could have been just a commoner and only recently graduated to fighter status because of training or as the result of the experience he received as a guard. The dungeon master's guide lists various non-player character classes. Amongst them is the commoner class with 1d4 hp with 2 skill points per level. It seems that everyone, once they have reached a certain age, depending upon race, has a level, at least, as a commoner. Although the rules don't actually state anything it seems that, so long as a character doesn't achieve 2nd level in the commoner class, she trades in her class for 1st level in whatever player character class she chooses to become. This makes sense, in a way because of the added benefits that come from an actual player character class (or for that matter, that come from any other npc class.) Also, it may make sense that, in order to take on any class other than commoner requires reaching 2nd level as commoner plus having additional training specific to the class taken. At this point the character trades in her xp in order to gain the benefits of being a first level character of the chosen class. So, one way or the other, it is quite possible that Zert was actually a caravan guard and is still only a 1st level fighter with 0 effective xp (as a fighter.)

Darmagon

 

Well, our party is delving deep into the heart of evil and combating it head on. Maybe guard duty has given Zert enough action to gain much experience... although I agree 0 xp seems a bit low.

And IIRC, isn't Zert lying to us about guard duty... isn't he around for... "other" reasons?

 

Missing the point...

You are missing the point I think. Livonya made all the npc's level one awhile back. That is the only reason they are level one. Livonya did this I believe to make the game tougher and more fun for those who have been through this thing several times. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

All the npc's,except Elmo, were downgraded to be more in line with the original T1 module. Fruella and Spugnoir were way off. Zert is a useless bum not worth the time and effort.

 

NPC Levels...

...according to T1-4 are:

Zert=2 Fighter
Spugnois=2 Magic User
Kobort=2 Fighter
Turoko=3 Monk
Furnok=4 Thief
Elmo=4 Ranger
Fruella=1 Fighter

There are others, but this covers the Wench & the ones mentioned in this thread. But Zert is a liar...and he's not the only one.

IMHO, the mods ought to reflect the module wherever possible...excepting new material, of course, or that which was made up by Troika to add flavor to this game.

 

I downgraded some of the NPC to level 1 for one reason and one reason alone.

The level up tab is broken and as far as I can tell can not be made to work properly as it does not have enough rows for each character.

I play the game with the level up tab disabled so that I get to choose what the NPCs should be like rather than having the NPCs use the broken level up tab.

I then set the NPCs that are in the Wench to level one. That way the players can decide how they will level up.

This makes the game more interesting and harder as these NPCs are not so powerful.

It was just a personal choice.

You can always set them back if you prefer them as they were.

- Livonya

 

I agree.

Hasn't this already been fixed via the "Level NPCs as PCs fix" in Co8? Does the level-up tab get referenced for NPCs that are already a certain level or only as PCs increase in level? If it's the latter, I'm not sure why reducing all the NPCs to level 1 is neccessary.

 

As a side note. I recently figured out why the fact that some NPCs are liars wasn't triggering very often, if ever.

when I release version 2.0 of my mod the NPCs that are liars will be behaving accordingly... beware.

I will consider moving these NPCs to higher levels, but since NPCs don't actually take a portion of the loot does it make sense to have them be so powerful?

I mean Furnok as level 4, Kobort as level 2, Turoko as level 3, and Elmo as level 4!!

Elmo at level 4 would basically make the early game into a cake walk. Personally I won't use Elmo as he makes the early game less than challenging... I would prefer to set him to level 1, but just haven't as I know people would complain endlessly about it. (If I ever use him then I will set him to 1).

I like having the NPCs in my party, but when they are 2 or 3 levels above the rest of my party it makes the game pretty borring.

The difference bettwen the original module and TOEE is a DM. TOEE lacks a DM and that lack of a DM means that some events/NPCs need to be changed for balance reasons.

A real DM can change things on the fly to keep the game challenging, but TOEE can't/doesn't do that.

- Livonya

 

I'm assuming PCs with good Sense Motive scores will be able to detect this (and consistant with the NPCs Bluff scores).

I think it's a matter of personal preference. And some people have a harder time with the game then others. I've heard many people say they find Elmo to be essential in the early levels and he costs the party almost half their starting cash to hire on, so while I never use him, I don't see him as a problem.

Inventory management issues aside, I find even the minimal looting of money and jewelry the NPCs do to be prohibitive from using them, so I generally just don't. I'd rather just make an extra PC if I need a role fulfilled. As much as I hated the BG series' actual game engine, I loved their NPCs and their interactions with each other and the main character. I know you're trying to improve upon the NPCs and give them more personality, but at the moment they just feel like an added expense that doesn't add to the experience.

 

I am one of the people that think Elmo is essential in the early stages of the game. A party of level 2 would have a very difficult time at the meadows and moathouse, even with Elmo. I lost 3 people at the meadows,and that's with Elmo. In the module, he was there specifically to help and spy on the party. He had 51HP in the module and he wasn't overpowering. He's good, but he misses a lot too. Please don't mess with Elmo.

 

So you think the game should be easier and easier because some people find it too hard?

Why should I cater to those that find it too hard?

Why not cater to those that find it too easy?

I don't see why people that find it too hard are more important than people that find it too easy.

I find the game to be too easy and I would like to make it harder. That is partly the point of my mod.

If you think it is too easy then keep playing the original TOEE. You don't need to download my mod, and you can certainly change anything in my mod. If you want it to be easier than open up the Protos.tab and make the NPCs level 4 or 5, or hell why not make them level 10? That should make for an interesting game experience.

Sorry for the sarcasm. But the problem with games in general is that game companies are constantly making their games too easy in order to make sure that the "casual" gamer won't find it too hard. The problem with this of course is that the "veteran" gamer constantly finds games to be too easy.

I am sick of having to play easy games because some "casual" gamer doesn't want a challenge. Why must I suffer for these people?

I started modding TOEE because I thought the game was too easy, not because I was worried that it was too hard for some people.

- Livonya

 

My point was these NPCs were in the game as released (and the original module) as higher than 1st level. They are helpful for those that need them. I am not proposing a change. You are the one who changed them.

Elmo could be turned into a flying vampric were-donkey and it wouldn't make a difference in how I personally play ToEE (beyond me pausing to say "That's f-ed up, yo.") but other people might be rather put out.

I understand you made your mod to increase the difficulty of the game because you felt it was too easy. And I understand that people do not have to use your mod.

However, your mod fixes a lot of things that were broken. People are going to download it not because they neccessarily feel the game was too easy, but because it fixes a lot of things that are wrong the game. And many of these people aren't going to be tech savy enough to "change things back".

If you want to make it exclusive and say "Only people who think ToEE is too easy should use my mod. End of story." you're welcome to do that. It's your mod and your work. But I think that excludes a lot of people out of being able to experience the fixes and additions you've spent an incredible amount of effort on. But in the end, it is your mod.