Web solution and rules survey

Dulcaoin came up with a nifty scripting phrase that will allow me to write a script that will make NPCs attempt to break free from web and other effects that allow a break free attempt.

This will go a long way to making the game true to the rules.

However, when NPCs attempt to break free it doesn't count as a Standard Action, but instead as a Move Action.

This means that an NPC can attempts to break free and also do a Full Attack (yes, a Full Attack and not just a Single Attack) or cast a spell. If they break free and choose to move then they only get a half move and a Single Attack.

On the other hand when one of your characters attempts to break free it counts as a Standard Action, which means that you can't cast a spell or attack in that same round.

This gives a slight advantage to the NPCs but on the flip-side it means that the NPCs won't just stand there doing nothing.

While it certainly isn't perfect it is better.

What do folks think about this?

- Livonya

 

i like the sound of it. most of the npc's are pretty weak, like lareth i mean if i want him to bargin for his life i have to take it easy on him or he dies in the first round. so anything that improves the quality of the game and makes the npc's a bit tougher sounds great

 

I prefer the slight advantage. After all, the PC's can be totally reactive, whereas the NPC's and others are scripted. Small price to pay for added realism I guess.

 

Yeah, that is pretty much what I think... a slight advantage for the NPC is not so bad, and it is way better then having the NPC just stand there with their thumb up their butt doing nothing.

I mad some great progress tonight...

Dulcaoin helped me out with some new scripting terms/phrases and I was able to improve some of my stuff...

- Livonya

 

I'm somebody who always gets annoyed when a glitch give the enemy an advantage, even when they aren't a challenge. I just find it aggravating, and I don't really have a rationale for it. That said, it may be a bit better to have them be able to break free than not, but perhaps you could halve their movement or something by scavanging the code from spike growth? This way, at least they don't get the full benefit of their advantage. Just a thought.

 

If they manage to break free then they only get half movement.

In most cases you won't even notice that they are getting an edge.

For instance if you were in attacking range you would not try to break free but attack. The NPC will do both, but the break free attempt is unimportant as they should attack anyway.

Spell casters would normally just cast spells (taking a Concentration check) and ignore trying to break free, but the enemy NPCs again do both... the break free attempt being irrelevent.

The only time they will get a real advantage is if you are within 10 to 15 feet from them. In that case they might break free, move and attack. Something you can't do. But the rest of the time you won't really see them getting a true advantage.

- Livonya

 

I disagree, a bit.

While I don't have a problem allowing NPCs to treat "break free" as a non-full-round-action, it's not true that it's only relevant if you're within range of the NPC. When my PCs are stuck in the web while fighting the spiders, it's quite possible for me to succeed a break-free attempt, and then immediately get stuck again on the next combat round, and I'd never be able to move, so it was either attempt to break free again, or perform a ranged attack (side note: when I fought that fight, I might not have been entirely hep to the full use of 5-foot-steps in the game, but that doesn't entirely change the debate).

The NPCs will now have the ability to break free AND perform a move, possibly escaping the spell and getting out of its effect range in one round, whereas I could never do that with my PCs. As a PC, I have to "bank" all my movement into a break-free action (should I chose to go that way), whereas the NPC can make a go of a break free AND make an attack, giving him an advantage.

The Rules Lawyer in me says that the NPC shouldn't get the advantage.

The "CRPGs are to be fun over realistic" part of my personality says that NPCs SHOULD have advantages since <human brain> beats <AI> any day.

Play testing should (rightly) surface which way I'll feel about it in the long run.

(all FWIW)

-- d

 

The movement issue is exactly the same for both NPC and PC.

If the PC breaks free you get a half move.

If the NPC breaks free they get a half move.

You seem to be mistaken about the way the web works against PCs.

Break Free is NOT a full round action, but a Standard Action which still leaves time for a partial move.

Also, note that unlike PCs, NPCs do not plan for their next turn. So you might cast a spell and then move anticipating your next turn. NPCs don't do that. What this means is that if an NPC manages to break free they won't actually move anywhere unless they are moving to attack.

So an NPC that breaks free, and then casts a spell or attacks a threatened enemy will not move away from the web.

Also NPCs will make no attempt to avoid web or to exit the web area. So in truth they are still at a huge disadvantage as they lack the logic to exit the web area which is what the PC will do.

- Livonya

 

As my last post indicated, I guess, I'm confused by what you're saying. I get that if it's a move action instead of a standard action, they could still either move or attack, but would only get a half-move; but why is they they ALSO get an attack on top of that, or can do a full attack? I was under the impression that you could never move and do a full attack or do a move action, move, and attack (a total of 3 actions). What gives?

 

When the computer does a Break Free action it reduces your move to half, and in the case of a PC it prevents you from casting a spell or attacking.

However, the PC would NEVER try to Break Free if they were going to attack or cast a spell. Obviously they would just attack or cast their spell. When the PC attempts to Break Free it is so they can LEAVE the web area, or advance on their target.

The NPC on the other hand will try to Break Free no matter what. However, they won't actually move if they have managed to break free unless their closest enemy is out of range. So they will continue to stay in the web area and will have to go through a Strength Check every single round... in effect they will continue to be stuck even though they could in theory leave the web area.

The ONLY time the NPC will get a "cheat" is if they are not going to cast a spell, there is no target in range, and the closest target is within a half move. In this case the NPC will break free, move, and get a single attack. The rest of the time the NPC will basically be doing exactly what a PC would do in the same instance.

And when the NPC fails their Strength Check then they will remain stuck and lose their turn, just the same way as the PC would.

Now compare that to the way the game is currently coded:

Right now web basically is EXTREMELY over powered in favor of the PC. You cast web and the NPCs can't do anything (unless they have spells or ranged weapons). They just stand there waiting for you to kill them. Game over. There is nothing they can do. It is silly.

Right now the game doesn't follow the rules at all. Never. Not once. The computer cheats in favor of the PC every single time. Basically if you use web you are cheating as you know the NPC can't do anything about it.

So how you can say this "fix" breaks the rules when the rules are already broken 100% of the time is beyond me.

Isn't it better to have the rules broken 25% of the time rather than 100% of the time?

With this fix installed it levels the playing field a bit more.

But the PC still has a massive advantage as the NPC doesn't understand that it is a good idea to leave the web area.

I am going to put this fix in, or I am going to remove Web as a spell that PCs can cast. In my opinion in the current environment using Web is cheating.

If the Co8 people don't want to use the anti-web script that I am writing then that is their choice, which is why I intend to offer my mod as a seperate thing to the Co8. I am sure there will be other features that they don't like as well. No big deal.

Anyway, I appreciate all the input... it is interesting to see how people think about these things...

I will continue to look for a way to make a 100% fix, but I would rather have a 50% fix than the current totally broken system that is being used.

- Livonya

 

I just want to say I agree that it's messed up and that something needs to be done. It does seem that your fix is a significant improvement, and that removing web, while it would "avoid" the problem, wouldn't "solve" it, because it reduces the effectiveness of low-level casters, and what the heck are you going to do about spiders?

My question is purely technical/terminological. If the NPC gets to move and attack after breaking free, how is it that break free is move action. Breaking free then moving and then attacking is 2 moves and a standard action, if breaking free is a move. I'm just really confused by this.

 

Liv,

I might be misconstruing things from "over here," but I get the impression you got rather upset about this; I certainly never meant to push any buttons or start any major arguments. Indeed, I was waffling on the issue as bad as any politician.

To be clear: I was (and am) saying that you should implement it in the "NPC gets an advantage" way, and then we should see how it stacks up in play-testing before getting out the rules stick and beating anything or anyone with it.

As for the rest of what I said...

First, as I said in another thread, in the 3e rules, an attempt to break free DOES count as a full-round action, and no other action is allowed afterward, not standard or move (I think the terminology for these may have changed a bit in 3.5, but still...)

And it might be my faulty memory, but I recall that (back when web actually worked for the spiders) when I played and get webbed, it would take ALL of my movement allowance to try a break-free on any given turn, and then have to end my turn. In the next turn, I was likely to fail a saving throw, and would get webbed again, the net effect being that I could either fight ranged, or I could try to break free and HOPE to clear the saving throw on the next round. I very well may be misremembering this; as I said, I wasn't even hep to the fact that one should use 5-foot-steps at the end of ones turns as much as possible in the game as a strategic rule (still, the memory's pretty strong -- I feel some testing coming on here, even though it means a reinstall)

(In other words, I _recall_ the game causing PCs to use a full action to break free as well)

As for the fact that NPCs are too _stoopit_ to get the heck out of a web, I was thinking more along the lines of a) they start on one side of the web (you on the opposite side), b) they advance towards you to attack, and get stuck c) next round, they break free and use the move allowance to get OUT of web range as they move forward again to attack you. This isn't something my PCs were at all able to accomplish, so it seemed like a way that would seem unfair.

BUT... one more time.... this is what testing will be for. I think you should implement as-is, and it should get tested. Let the rules lawyers (me being a potential member of that mob) make a case for crippling their break-free abilities WHEN & IF it seems necessary in actual play test.

(All IMHO)

-- d

 

BTW, all this is EXACTLY what I was getting at with my "human-brain > AI" statement (implying, therefore, that the "broken, unfairness" of the implementation is, and should be, actually quite acceptable).

-- d