Weapon Finesse Question

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by kultrva, Dec 11, 2011.

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  1. kultrva

    kultrva Member

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    I've only been playing d20 games for a few weeks, so be easy on me. I just got ToEE and Co8 and decided to make a dual-wielding elf ranger. I took weapon finesse as my starting feat, but it's acting odd (either that or I'm overlooking something).

    With 14 STR and 20 DEX, if I wield rapiers in my main hand and off hand, my bonuses go to 0/-4. However, if I wield a rapier and a dagger, my bonuses are +2/-2.

    Is that correct, and if so, why? I thought that weapon finesse would treat my rapiers as light weapons. Any explanation would be appreciated. (Also, I know that once I get two-weapon fighting my ranger's life will get a lot easier)

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. Ank

    Ank Established Member

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    'There ya go man !!' http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse (feel free to check other things as well) naturaly there are some parts where ToEE doesn't comply but those are rather rare(and often a direct result of somekind of bug)
    As a concise answer to yr q : thou finess-able a rapier is a medium weapon and as such cannot be considered a light offhand wpn thus incurs the standard -2 to hit penalty ;)
     
  3. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    Ank is correct. The best route to duel wield the same weapon, and thus take advantage of weapon feats, is the short sword, hand axe, or light pick. The sword sword and hand axe both do 1d6 damage, with the SS criting on 19-20 for x2 damage, while the HA crits only on a 20, but for x3 damage. The light pick only does 1d4 damage, but its crits on a 20 for x4 damage.

    I'd run a ranger who duels hand axes early, then switch to cleavers, which use the game considers a hand axe for feat/skill purposes.
     
  4. kultrva

    kultrva Member

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    Thanks, guys! That cleared up a lot for me. Much appreciated.
     
  5. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Better yet, if you have an extra feat handy, the Co8-introduced exotic weapon Dao is light and finessable, and has the stats of a longsword. IMO, it's the superior weapon for finesse in the game. Great cleavers are almost game-breakingly overpowered, and I refuse to use them :p Something with base damage of a Bastard Sword shouldn't be finessable, let alone light.

    Having a heavy offhand is not all that bad though, I've had a 10clr/10fgt double-wielding Dwarvern waraxes, and he could pretty much take down the Balor solo (eh, bard buffs included). You just need to single-wield or have a light offhand in early-game, at least until your BAB gets high enough (or until your support charas get good enough buffs) so that the -2 doesn't make too much difference. In your example, you could go with rapier/shortsword for the time being.
     
  6. Mouldyrye

    Mouldyrye Member

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    I noticed that Furnok the NPC rogue has weapon finesse and gets his dex bonus applied to both mainhand and offhand while wielding a mace or shortsword and his +1 dagger. So I decided to take it as my level 6 feat for my Halfling Rogue but for some reason it doesn't count on his shortsword attacks.

    Is this because of the Size issue and a shortsword or mace isn't really that small for a halfling? It just seems like a slap in the face to a Gnome or Halfling to have to take dual daggers to get the attack bonus, especially since Piercing weapons can't be used effectively against skeletons and the like.

    Will I be forced to roll humans and elves for my rogues on subsequent plays because the halfling rogue HAS to dedicate a high roll to strength because his weapon finesse is nerfed into the ground? My mainhand BAB is twice what my offhand is...seems like in PnP I would throw this one out as a DM.
     
  7. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.

    The weapons they wield are considered one size larger than they actually are.

    A longsword is like a greatsword, a shortsword is like a longsword.
     
  8. Lava

    Lava Established Member

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    A longsword would be about the same size as the halfling, so I can see why they would do this with weapon sizes. But it's still a serious nerf to their power, especially since their bonus with slings doesn't work. Elves seem like a better choice for rogues, especially considering their free longsword and longbow feats.
     
  9. Mouldyrye

    Mouldyrye Member

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    Thanks for the feedback. I knew the answer but was disappointed with my conclusion. Are there any small versions of things that will work better than just the dual wield daggers for a halfling rogue?
     
  10. nyarlathotep

    nyarlathotep Merry Murder Maniac

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    there are tiny masterwork rapiers to be found in this game, you'll just need to unlock the masterwork items, as not any old shopkeeper has them. ;)
     
  11. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    I have stopped taking small characters, if for no other reason they cannot keep up with everyone while moving around the game. When a rebuked zombie can outrun you, it might be time to retire from adventuring.
     
  12. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    They can now (outside of combat).
     
  13. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    Thanks for the detail, but I would like have the list of weapons matching weapon finesse for a halfling.

    For now I only found dagger, nothing else, that's ridiculous. Ok I'll load back to not go in this absurd path, or create new character and use console to give him the same xp.

    For sure I would not have created the halfling as I did if I knew.
     
  14. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Sounds like fertile grounds for a House Rules option (Resize Weapon to Wielder). I.e. the weapon size would get adjusted by the wielder's (base) size, so Halflings would automatically get small versions of the weapons.

    @_doug_ are you interested? If not I may do it later.
     
  15. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    I search around and it seems be a known weakness of D&D 3.5e. But what's weird is I could not find any single list of finesse weapons for a halfling, at least by curiosity, I think there's just knife, even gauntlet weapon wouldn't match halfing fist, and Kukri wouldn't match finesse. But if there's more than dagger and ToEE hasn't those weapons it won't change much. I read about a feat MonkeyGrip that decrease weapons size by one for the character. But it's not clear the origin and it's not in ToEE.

    It seems 5e choose change totally the point, removing the finesse feat and having weapons with finesse quality. I suppose no more halfling problem but I didn't check.

    For having weapons of different size, it seems have been in 2e but removed in 3e, not sure. For mood I would feel it's better have specific weapons, a long sword becoming a short sword is a bit weird. For sure it's a problem for drops to have more specific weapons but still it looks more like a difficult point kist skipped by D&D.

    For TemplePlus I would like use it (wanted the half HP at level up) but I failed make it work in wine, when for Co8 from Gog ToEE wine there's nothing to do it's Co8 ready.
     
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