Warmage improvements

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by anatoliy, Nov 26, 2021.

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  1. anatoliy

    anatoliy Established Member

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    Hi

    @_doug_ , you've made marvelous class - Warmage. Could you please consider adding some more spells for him as well? :)

    Specifically Hail of Stone - one of my player uses that spell constantly and I have to say it's pretty impressive one for low levels. It's 1d4 per level, plus Int damage bonus for Warmage Edge, plus no saves! :) Sometimes he also uses Sudden Empower witch is makes this spell even better.

    Another thing he uses is Twin Spell feat.
     
  2. _doug_

    _doug_ Established Member

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    Those are good suggestions. The warmage could use a few more spells for sure. I think adding new metamagic is now possible and something I will eventually look into.
     
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  3. Sagenlicht

    Sagenlicht Established Member

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    Hail of Stone is part of the Spell Compendium. I would add the spell, when I would do the wizard spell part of it. So yeah, Doug could do the spell if he wants to, or if you are patient enough @anatoliy, I would do the spell anyways down the road.
     
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  4. sigofmugmort

    sigofmugmort Established Member Supporter

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    The various orb spells would be great as well
     
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  5. _doug_

    _doug_ Established Member

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    I would love it if someone else makes that spell. The visual effect sounds tricky to make!

    Orb spells are another good idea.
     
  6. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    +1 to orbs!
     
  7. Kriegdoom

    Kriegdoom Member

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    Doug, I wonder if you would consider creating a throwback Illusionist class from 1e. The Illusionist was subsumed into the specialist mage schools in 2e, but by 3.5e that idea really gets diluted by the specialist feats. In any case, no one would specialize in Illusion in ToEE because Evocation, Enchantment and Conjuration are so powerful. Who doesn't want more fireballs?

    The 1e Illusionist was more than a specialized wizard, however. He had a different slant on magic, approaching less from a perspective of power over the universe than subtle manipulation of the target's psyche. He also had his own Illusionist spells that were not included in the Magic-User spell book, such as hallucinatory terrain and massmorph. If used with cunning, these spells could be very powerful in pnp 1e.

    I've tabulated a potential Illusionist spellbook in ToEE, using (at least for now) only those mage/sorcerer spells already available in the game. I've also identified some perks and limitations that can be applied to the class, also already in the game. If you are interested, let me know and I will share in separate thread.
     
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  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    We all want our gnome illusionists, but a lot of illusion spells are real RP moments and hard to translate to a CRPG. I'd be interested in hearing your ideas though Kriegdoom :)
     
  9. Kriegdoom

    Kriegdoom Member

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    Some of the really fun ones like ventriloquism and my all-time favorite, magic mouth, true. But there are some that could be readily created for ToEE, such as:

    phantasmal force (basically spiritual hammer)
    improved phantasmal force
    hypnotism
    (basically command)
    summon shadow
    dispel exhaustion
    chaos
    dispel illusion
    (great for countering mirror image)
    conjure animals
    (i.e., summon nature's ally)
    etc.

    But first, let me lay out the spell book using wizard/sorcerer spells already in the game.

     
  10. Kriegdoom

    Kriegdoom Member

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    SO, Illusionist spells are somewhat different than magic-user spells in 1e, in that the Illusionist is manipulating the mind of the target(s) vice imposing their will on the universe.

    But for our purposes, we can identify a number of spells already in the game that will work as Illusionist spells.

    First, here are the Illusion school spells already in ToEE:

    Lvl 1:
    color spray
    Lvl 2:
    blur
    invisibility
    mirror image
    Lvl 3:
    displacement
    invisibility sphere
    Lvl 4:
    greater invisibility
    phantasmal killer
    Lvl 5:
    none.
    Lvl 6:
    mislead
    Lvl 7:
    none.

    Not a satisfactory list. But, more to follow.
     
  11. Kriegdoom

    Kriegdoom Member

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    OK, here are mind-affecting spells in ToEE. Any of these would be in line with the 1e vision of the Illusionist class:

    Lvl 0:
    daze
    Lvl 1:
    cause fear
    charm person
    sleep
    Lvl 2:
    daze monster
    scare
    tasha's hideous laughter
    Lvl 3:
    deep slumber
    rage
    heroism
    hold person
    Lvl 4:
    charm monster
    confusion
    crushing despair
    fear
    Lvl 5:
    feeblemind
    hold monster
    mind fog
    dominate person
    Lvl 6:
    none. (grrr)
    Lvl 7:
    hold person, mass
    insanity

    but wait, theres more.
     
  12. Kriegdoom

    Kriegdoom Member

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    some other spells in ToEE that would be in-line with the 1e Illusionist class include:

    Lvl 0:
    detect magic
    read magic
    resistance
    Lvl 1:
    obscuring mist
    Lvl 2:
    blindness/deafness
    fog cloud
    glitterdust
    see invisibility
    eagle's splendor
    Lvl 3:
    none.
    Lvl 4:
    solid fog
    Lvl 5:
    cloudkill
    Lvl 6:
    true seeing
    Lvl 7:
    power word, blind
    prismatic spray
     
  13. Kriegdoom

    Kriegdoom Member

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    So why would you need a new class to use these spells? Why not create a specialist wizard or sorcerer that only uses these spells?

    Well, you wouldn't. Because the evocation, abjuration and conjuration spells are sooooo powerful in ToEE. You would end up taking magic missile over color spray, fireball over deep slumber, etc.

    But if that's the case, and this type of character is weak, why would you include an Illusionist in the party?

    Well, that's why we need a new class. We need to buff the Illusion specialist so they can keep up with, say, the Warmage as a 6/7/8th slot PC.

    My proposal to creating the Illusionist class would be:

    1. limit the Illusionist spell book to those described above, plus whatever new spells someone can (ahem) conjure up in ToEE.
    2. However, give the class wider spell selection by providing a spell radial menu vice written spell book (same as Warmage, Beguiler, Sorcerer).
    3. Change the level of some spells to give Illusionist an edge over other magic-users in using new spells, such as: mirror image as a first-level Illusionist spell, phantasmal killer as third level (in place of lightning bolt or fireball), etc.
    4. Provide some class buffs, such as: Persuasive at first level; Spell Focus (Illusion) at third level; Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) at 6th level.
    5. Some extra class skills (bluff, intimidate, possibly sleight of hand).
    6. Possibly add some non-wizard spells, such as tree shape.

    Anyway, that my idea. Glad to help craft and play-test if someone wants to pick up on it. Cheers!
     
  14. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    Fyi, I rarely used evocation spells in the last many playthroughs, except perhaps cleric Sound Burst for the initial stun for emergencies. I find the enchantment spells much more powerful. And even though I usually forbid myself to use the charm spells... the hold spells and blind spells (hold monster, mass hold, glitterdust,etc) are so very potent on the average wizard. As an example, I have found the color spray spell to be potent all the way through the game with a good DC and initiative = first round stun.

    Also, the new illusion spell Greater Mirror image is very strong.

    There are only 2 or 3 useful abjuration needs: stoneskin, pfe, energy resists, etc. And most of these can be covered just as well by clerics. Only the shield spell is specific to mages.

    Conjuration is strong and has Cloud kill and Stinking cloud, but I usually don't play these 2 spells as they are mostly OP [in terms of how the AI ignores it] and/or it's a pain to maneuver around for the party. That leaves basically Web, Grease , Glitterdust, Mage Armor, Solid Fog and summons.

    =>You might find a Beguiler close to what you want in spells. I mentioned color spray because it's part of the limited offensive Beguiler list, which contains many of the spells you listed. You can pick up Phantasmal Killer (illusion) as beguiler and I used that a lot to great effect.

    Otherwise, I think you could just pick a specialist with specific spells and make it a gnome for extra DC for some of the illusion spells. And it would [imho] do very well with those spells.


    That said, ToEE has so many extras now..and I can't fault you for asking.

    _____________________________________________________

    Re: Evocation. I forgot to add that I did a run with a Warmage and found Warmage [for my playstyle] to be a bit boring and quite underpowered compared to all the other stuff that mages can do. Restricted to a better magic missile, fire ball, etc. just doesn't compare. It's nice for the very low levels with boosted lvl 0 and 1 spells, but after that...meh.

    So on the original topic of improving warmages...I can fully agree with that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
  15. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    Remember, shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, and similar spells exist in core!
     
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