Vs. Reach Weapons - Tactics?

What should a melee NPC do when they have a normal weapon and you have a reach weapon?
Within the following constraints:

The primary concern here being that the AI charges reach weapons-wielders with all the Grace and Savvy of a newb charging an Ogre...

 

Someone with perms should move this thread to the Temple of Elemental Evil thread.

 

In my own mod the sollution I find for everything is always diversity.

Meaning that when I create a scene I try to maximize diversity by having a mix of ranged/melee/caster units... and with melee units I try to have a lot of them have reach weapons of their own.

The problem with native ToEE is a lack of diversity. You often find areas where there are only 1 kind of enemy with only one type of weapon.

This allows the player to use simple tactics to win the battle.

In my opinion the hardest fights for the player are when the enemy units use a vast diversity of combat styles.

Spell casters should always be backed up with range weapon units that can go melee if need be.

Melee units benefit greatly when at least a few of them use reach weapons of their own.

Almost every battle should have at least 1 enemy caster, 1 enemy ranged unit, and at least 1 enemy melee unit.

This mix generally prevents a single tactic from winning every battle.

Then the next step is to give 90% of all enemy units BOTH a ranged and a melee weapon, and you create a more complex battle that will require more complex tactics for victory.

And in all honesty, I think most humanoid enemy units should favor reach weapons like spears. Spears are cheap and easy to use. If I was a goblin I would want a reach weapon. Let the bad ass use a sword, I'll take the cheap shots with my spear.

Anyway, I think the reason you find using reach weapons with your PCs to be such an advantage is that the enemy units almost never have reach weapons of their own. That was a module design problem, and not really an AI problem.

- Livonya

 

About enemy units...

Have in mind that not all the enemy groups should have such a diversity of roles, or pretty soon you'll get the fact that your group of adventurers isn't that special...

Bandits probably don't have spellcasters, and would have ranged and long reachers more than other kind of group.

Other thing that i didn't like much from ToEE was the quantity/kind of creatures in a group...Bugbears are too pushy, they're thugs by nature, it would be very strange to have so many in the same group, like in the temple...they would quickly become to fight each other to see who will rule, and a lot will probably disband to find a more weaker band (orcs or goblins) to lead.

Gnolls are good in group fighting, they work in pack, and probably they' will have some spellcaster (mostly a cleric or sorcerer) in their ranks.

hobgoblins are intelligent and skilled warriors, and martial minded, they should use the more complex feats and tactics (expertise, flanking, power attack combinations, dual wielding, ...)

An interesting band leader could be an Ogre mage...

 

Although i agree with everything you said - everything else BUt

altho the low numbers of such weapons is an issue

the AI does in fact handle them exceedingly poorly - the granting of an extra attack of opportunity - and i'm usually on "Guard" anyway -is devastating; especially at low levels where the monsters don't have the hit points to take an extra hit apiece to come to grips with you ( when your reach fighters have power-attack this problem extends a bit... never mind the reach + improved trip games)

the upside to this however is that AoO's used here; barring Combat Reflex feat; cant be used to stop the nasty infiltrators the AI is fond of sending if your lines aren't as close as you think they are.

The implied image of Goblin PHALANXES gave me a chill tho'.

Historically; good order infantry formations (such as the phalanx or the tortoise) were very hard to beat - but it requires alot of training and discipline which i personally don't associate with goblins in particular...

But all that is an aside - YES i think the AI not handling that is an issue...


bUt YES all you said about encounters - troop role mixes - would greatly ameliorate that.
* edit * htype so slow Knights response wasnt up yet when i posted. Again; knight points out - well in my opinion - how different "factions" of monsters might behave differently - in this case in band composition as well as behavior. Dovetailing nicely with your other thread; IMO **

And if you can't convince the AI NOT to charge a pike its probably the only way -

but perhaps someone else will post a tactical work-around we are overlooking?

 

I can script an NPC melee unit not to charge a pike (in most situations), but then what? I mean what should they do instead?

If you have a standard weapon with no reach, and your opponent has a reach weapon, then what choices do you have?

You are at a disadvantage. That is just the way it is.

Probably the only real solution is to switch to a ranged weapon and try to stay out of the range of the unit using the reach weapon.

Otherwise you just have to get in close, and if you have support try to flank so that the unit using the reach weapon will have a harder time keeping you at reach range.

- Livonya

 

Then, it's when Expertise takes on a more aggresive aspect; you could take a 5 foot step to enter the threatened are thus negating the AoO; or just enter without charge, with Expertise taking some base attack but adding to AC, also reach weapons need two hands, and their wielder can't use a shield so creatures could get a better chance to close to reach armed opponents...

 

Right Knight

I manage to almost always engage reach monsters Without giving them free attacks

BUT... don't forgetthe original part - the constraints - the AI; If I Understand Correctly; just cant be goaded into the Cautious Advance
(which by the way is how Romans and Spanish swordsmen combatted the Phalanx IRL)
- using expertise makes sense tho to me. Like the rage discussion on the other thread; this could just involve superior triggers.

@Liv - you asked what else; what instead? That was why i started this thread to get other answers to that.

@Gaear - * thats funny * I have actually seen soemthing VERY similar IRL at an SCA event when someone was tripped by a "billhook" (in fairness; you aren't supposed to trip for saftey reasons; but it was still funny). I'm guessing you've seen something similar...

 

Clearly you don't want to have every enemy group be exactly the same, but at the same time you don't want to create encounters where there are clear disadvantages.

The biggest problem I see is when you have casters with no melee or no range support.

If I was a powerful wizard or cleric then I sure as hell wouldn't be hanging around in my treasure vault without some lowly guards to back me up.

Your comments about bugbears and gnolls are great. Very useful.

I invision small creatures favoring ranged and reach weapons, and larger creatures favoring close melee weapons.

A good random encounter would have a Bugbear or Ogre leader with a small host of small goblins using spears and bows.

You have a better grasp on monster identity charactertics then I do.

You should consider building a chart of suggested monster hirarchy. You know what kind of creatures would serve a bugbear, what sort of creatures would a bugbear serve, etc, etc...

Just a general templet of suggested roles.

I am going to build a new random encounter table and a chart like that would really help to flesh out the group structures.

- Livonya

PS: One of the most interesting changes I did for ToEE that I never released was giving the Giant in Emerdry Meadow (spelling?) throwing rocks, and scripting him to target casters with these stones. The giant is easily taken out with area effect spells or any spell that prevents him from moving, but once he has rocks then the situation is much more complex. Just this simple change creates a better encounter that changes depending on the player's tactics.

 

Absolutely :yes:
Or if you kill their leader, they could begin to chatter to make you their leader...:shame:

Exactly. Small creatures have a bonus to hit bigger creatures (in fact, goblins and kobolds have bonuses to dexterity and strength penaltyes) and a bonus to AC due to size, so they would stay at a safe distance...and the bigger thugs would make a better melee fighters to get advantage of their strength (or natural reach due to size)

Ogres aren't leaders, theyre more like the boss fists ( too stupid and weakminded)

A chart could be useful indeed, but it has to be done carefully: this is 3.5 Ed; i much prefer to stay with the new set of rules (altough i like some older rules and keep them as house rules), but Shiningted has the final decision, and Lord_Spike prefer the older versions...again, it should be made carefully, more as an organized suggestion chart, with a "judge" to say "this in, this out"...and not to sound elitist, but in private, or all the people on the forum will begun to argue.

 

I was actually thinking beyond KoTB. I haven't talked to Shiningted so I don't know what he is thinking for KoTB.

I was just thinking for general use.

I have to build a new random encounter system for my own mod, and that is what I had in mind.

- Livonya

 

Well, it can be done easily. If you want, you can send me a PM with a list of the creatures you need, and i could make it.

 

I think that making such improvements only for your mod
Liv would do great harm to the Co8 modpack in a way that
it would lack such HUGE improvements. This should be "in"
in all mods and kept as a base for other mods (like the Co8
5. is, well at least in my eyes). Besides (I've probably said
that some time ago) clever AI would really help rebalance
the game which has become a bit too easy because of new
items and options.

 

Maggit -

The AI improvements I will gladly offer to both CO8 and to KoTB, but a lot of what was talked about in this thread has to be done at the map design stage.

I am going to do a complete re-build of the random encounter tables for my mod, but I don't think that is appropriate for either KoTB or ToEE native.

I plan to submit anything and everything that I do for public use, except in those situations where it would really only be appropriate for my own work.

Tonight I hope to post all the AI improvements and equipment handeling stuff that I wrote to KotB so it can be tried out. All I have left to do is finish writing the instructions.

Some things I have come up with are very simple, and some are very, very complicated. So there is no guarantee that any of them will every actually make it into any other mods other than my own.

It has to be implemented on a script by script basis for each and every monster/NPC. I don't have the time to do that personally.

I have come up with a system that can be used to improve the AI, but it isn't plug and play. Someone has to implement it.

I am not sure how it will work for the main C08 mod as some of it may or may not work depending on how Troika initially placed the inventory items into the game. It would have to be tested.

There is one element of my new system that can crash the game depending on how the weapons were initially placed into the game. It is much easier to start from scratch then to go back and re-do and add the system.

I will submit the system once the kinks are worked out, but the implementation will have to be done by others.

In any event, I am not holding anything back. If I come up with something useful then I will certainly release it.

The odds are that I will never ever release my mod as the criteria I have set for any sort of beta are far off in the distance. So trust me, I have no intention of holding anything back.

- Livonya