(Very) New Player, a Few Questions for the Pros

Hello!

I'm just starting ToEE for the first time, and I have finally composed what I think is a decent party - but I'm not sure.

I've played a few games based on D&D 3ED, but never one that followed the rules so closely. I'm looking for some general feedback on how I built my party. I'm not too worried about the stats since they seem to function the same as in other games (MotB, for example), but the feats and spells had me pondering character-creation for hours.

So here's what I have (5 people in my party, but thinking about adding a 6th):

Half-Orc Fighter - Power Attack, Cleave
Half-Elf Rogue - Dodge
Dwarven Cleric - Good/War Domains, Dodge
Human Wizard - Spell Focus Enchantment, Toughness (Debuffer, Support)
Human Sorcerer - Spell Focus Necromancy, Spell Focus Evocation (Raw Damage)


I'm considering "dual-classing" my Rogue as a Ranger 50/50 and either dual-wielding with him or using him as an archer - I haven't decided yet.

Did I miss anything critical in my build? Did I take anything useless? Am I going to have trouble early-game? Late-game? Would adding a 6th party member (Barbarian front-liner) be a good/bad/mediocre idea? Also, my Cleric only has 14 CHA, is that going to mess up my turning? Is turning valuable in ToEE? I'd like to have my fighter specialize in two-handed weapons with long reach, is that bad and which polearms are most common? Is Improved Initiative worth getting? I'd like to do some crafting, is getting Craft Wonderous A&A on my Cleric/Mage/Sorc a bad idea? On all of them? One of them? Which one?

I know that these sound like dumb questions, but damn this game has a lot of complexity for someone who isn't conversant with the various systems involved.

Thanks for reading!

 

There are a LOT of undead in the game, so a cleric with greater turning comes in handy. Dwarfs make good axe fighters, but a human cleric of Pelor with Good/Sun domains can really turn undead. Replace the Sorceress with a full Ranger that excels in archery. There's a chart just for crafting in the forum. Improved initative works fine.

 

Thanks for the reply!

It's worth sacrificing War for Sun just for the turning?

A Ranger archer can put out more damage than a Sorc specialized in Evoc/Necro?

Yep, I have that. I suppose my question was more specifically addressed at the benefits of having Craft Wondrous A&A on more than one caster. Especially if I ditch my Sorc in favor of a Ranger, that would mean only two casters available to take the feat.

Also, is it worth having a pure Rogue + a pure Ranger as opposed to having a Rogue/Ranger? The reason I ask is because sometimes pure Rogues are surpassed by Rogues that take levels as another class, either Ranger or Fighter or Wizard.


Thanks!

 

Humans get more feats, so a human cleric can get both improved turning and extra turning. Extra turning give you 4 more turns a day which can help if you have a low Cha.

I like to let my rogue be single class and give him martial weapon handaxe so he can wield the cleaver you will need a good leader and the rogue is by far the best.
You will get some cool feats at higher levels for your rogue.

2 Fighters are better than 2 casters, a human fighter get 3 feats at level one, power attack cleave and weapon focus or exotic weapon bastard sword so he can wield a bastard sword with one hand.

So keep you wizard as he get spells 1 level prior to the sorcerer.

 

Change the rogue to an elf for the free use of longbow and longsword. Humans get the extra feat, while elves get free use of LB & LS, as well as a few spell immunities (sleep, etc). Then have him concentrate on archery feats, although I sometimes throw in Nimble Fingers for the bonus to disabling traps.

I understand your thoughts to add ranger, but believe me a rogue using a longbow (or better a composite longbow) with a high DEX and good STR (14+) becomes a ballistic missile launcher after 8th level. Remember you get sneak attack damage on ranged attacks within 30 feet. You can usually figure out how far 30' is in the game by seeing how far your elf can walk in combat (unencumbered in light armor = 30'). And without any real spoilers, most indoor combat is within 30'. Make him a second line fighter, but if someone closes on him, he can still use a longsword.

As Chano notes, rogues make good party leaders (talker). Make sure he has a decent INT (14+), and try to max out all the talking skills, since a lot of the game is based on conversations.


Also I think the Toughness feat is a waste on the Wiz, give him a frog familiar (all the rest suck anyway) for +3 HPs.

 

Awesome, thanks for the advice!

I'm a bit disappointed that dual-casters isn't great, but that makes sense as casters tend to be weaker at early levels.

One thing that I'm curious about, do you guys usually use 5-man parties? Adding a 6th member would allow me to do something like Fighter-Barb-Rogue-Cleric-Druid-Wiz, which sounds interesting to me, especially since Druid is a class that I have less experience with.

Are Druids useful in ToEE as summoners?

I'm thinking about using my Wizard as debuff-focused, but I'm not sure how effective a build that is, and debuffs seem to spread through a variety of magical schools making specialization more difficult.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Human Fighter - Power Attack, Cleave, Weap Focus: Longsword
Half-Orc Barb - Power Attack, Cleave - but I will be looking to specialize on Spear, Halberd, whatever long-reach weapon I can get my hands on. Seems like if I can roll some DEX adding Combate Initiative (or whatever it's called) for landing AoO's on everything in range.
Elven Rogue - Dodge
Human Cleric - 2x Turning Feats, Good/Sun domains
Human(?) Wizard - I have no idea =/
Human Druid - Natural Spell, Augment Summoning


Thanks!

 

I like a 5 man party, but if its your first time through I might go for 6 just to try out the different classes.

Druids are great summoners, and they get an animal companion at 1st level. I usually go with the jackal, he may start with more HPs than the rest of the party combined.

I find bards make great debuffers, as they have a good variety of those spells available. Without giving away too much, there is a great bard NPC available in the game. In fact there are several great NPCs who add some character with their dialogs. With the mod's new front end you can have your 5 or 6 man party and still have room for 2-3 NPCs to join you.

 

Cool, that's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to use the party I mentioned in my last post, I think it could be neat.

Got the Sword&Board Fighter with longsword specialty for heavy tank using heavy armors, the Barb with long-reach weapon specialty for general offense (and Combat Reflexes for guarding my backline) and to wear medium armors, the Rogue archer for ranged support and as my spokesman (I got a great roll and I used that to make my Rogue) and using light armors, my Cleric for healing, Wizard for offensive casting/debuffing, and Druid for summoning and general support in medium/light armor (of the unrestricted materials, of course).

Finally in-game, equipping my party for the first time!

Yay!!!

Thanks for all the advice, it really helped a lot. I feel like I have a pretty good idea how I'm going to play this out moving forward =)

 

As GG is saying, using either 6 pc or some npc on your first run is wise.
Later on you can try smaller parties to experience high level spells earlier on, a high level wizard or cleric can really make up for a lot of muscle.

A party of 3 would be : Bard as leader (get healing spells, Fighter and Wizard or Cleric.
If you play without a cleric you will have to fight undead with weapons which is timeconsuming, if you play without a wizard you will lose the benefit of the greatest spells in the game.

Why a Bard,, you need a good leader with both bluff and diplomacy so either bard or rogue as they get the most skillpoints.

 

Gotcha.

A couple more questions:

How useful is Search, and what's the radius? Do you ever need it? Do you find any interesting content? Should you use it upon entering each room?

Also, I put points in Move Silently for my Rogue, but the movespeed is really slow. Do most people just skip it?

I was considering putting point in Use Magical Device on my Rogue as well, using wands/scrolls seems like it could be useful later on. True or false?

My Rogue is my spokesman, does she need to be in the first slot? I checked in conversations around Hommlet and of course I can just select her (she's in the third slot), but I'm wondering if there are conversations not initiated by the PC that might default to slot 1.


Thanks again for your patience and advice =)

 

Whew, I'm glad I thought of that! I'm restarting with my Rogue in the first slot, thanks for the info, close call.

Yep, I noticed that. Very cool. Have a nice little protective wedge around my squishies =)


Edit: Is there any way to tell which voice I have selected for a PC? I don't want to pick duplicates by accident, and since there aren't a ton of voices I like, that might be a problem. I suppose I can go in-game and check but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious.

Edit2: Noticed something interesting: Everywhere I've looked in game in a Cleric's description, it states that she has Simple Weapon Proficiency. However, I can't find a single ranged weapon that doesn't grant her at least -3AB. Using simple melee weapons is fine, but light crossbows, shortbows, slings, darts, etc all inflict the same -3AB. My Cleric is human, worships Pelor, has Good and Strength domains. I can't figure it out!

 

Search is quite useful, especially for spotting traps and secret doors. Make sure the rogue has a good search skill.

You can left click and drag the characters around in the bottom order, so you can decide who is in the first slot, or the last. Sometimes when changing maps, the game decides where the characters are by bottom order and not the marching formation, so those squishies end up being in the front.

Clerics can use crossbows and slings as simple weapons. What is your clerics DEX and what is the cleric's armor max DEX bonus? (This game can be really complicated!)

 

Oh my god, I'm an idiot. Totally forgot ranged weapons use DEX, even the watered-down 3ED games I've already played had that. Hell, 1st ED had that. I just spaced out =)

Ah! Didn't notice that, should have experimented. Common sense.

Good, I've been keeping it maxed. I assume the radius is the same as line-of-sight?


Thanks again!

 

Search and Disable Device are basically essential to a Rogue. Ditto Open Locks, unless you want your Wizard or Sorcerer to be carrying at least one Knock scroll or spell most of the time. Hide and Move Silently are VERY useful for getting close to the enemy; especially if your Rogue has multiple attacks through Two-Weapon Fighting or even just levels. An initial round of sneak attack damage can do wonders for weakening tough opponents.

Personally I prefer the Good and Healing domains for a Cleric. The reason is simple: most domains have at least one spell level whose bonus spell is, for lack of a better word, sub-par. Healing, on the other hand, is always handy ... and allows the cleric to not waste his useful spells on casting Cure Wounds spells. Good, on the other hand, is useful mostly because it allows the Cleric to create Holy weapons. Since most of the creatures in the temple are evil, this is an incredibly useful ability to have.