Tower shield questions

Howdy all.

A question to everyone with experience with them in game, how do Tower Shields work in this game?

I'm pretty versed in 3.5 rules, but I will confess that I don't know exactly what they do in this game. (Since some rules have to be approximated due to confines of the engine.)

I just had the bright idea to revisit a character I used years ago, a Dwarf Barbarian 1 for the starting 12 hp, then fighter 2 or 4, and then the rest of the levels in Barbarian for hit points. I know it's blasphemy to use a barbarian as a heavily armored warrior, but with the newer dwarven stone armor I can't resist putting together a rather beastly tank.

Also, while we're on the subject of MAX AC warrior builds, here's my plan.

Dwarven Armor +3
Ring of protection +3
Tower shield +3
Amulet of natural armor +3

And I'm probably going with combat expertise and a 20 con to start out with, with all my feats going towards Iron will and fortitude. The defensive stuff.

Anything I'm missing?

 

Offense? ..maybe..

No seriously i use tower shield +2 with Otis along with mithril full plate +2 and it work just fine.

Tower shield gives you +3 (or +4, cant be sure) AC raw and can be used as large shield, no need for setting it up as a cover like in D'n'D.

 

The shield imposes an automatic armor check penalty to your *to hit* score?

 

Check in the box where your attack bonus is written. If it doesn't say so then it shouldn't provide penalty.

 

I've been using a tower shield in my current game and I never noticed a penalty on my attack bonus. I did notice that if you are using weapon finesse, that the armor check penalty of *any* shield is subtracted from your attack bonus, but would anyone actually use a tower shield with a high-dex weapon finesse character?

 

That's bizarre. Are you talking about a high dex - finesse - dual wielder with a buckler? Or someone finessing a dagger and using a shield?

 

Any time you use weapon finesse, you take a penalty if you are using a shield that has an armor check penalty. I figured it out when I equipped my rogue/cleric with a tower shield just for kicks and her attack bonus went through the floor. I figure it should be the same for any shield/weapon combo, and if you are twf, i would guess it would apply to both weapons, in addition to the -1 the buckler gives to the off-hand weapon. Of course, the good bucklers (darkwood and mithral) have a 0 armor check penalty, so it never shows up with those.

 

It's just tower shields in the PnP, but I was trying to figure out if that penalty applied in this game. Non proficient shields and bucklers also do that, due to their specific mechanics. But using a Small shield, for example, and a Longsword won't penalize you.

I don't think it has anything to do with finesse, but I think you gave me the information I needed. I believe you will get a negative for using a tower shield in the game. That's the trade off for getting +2 AC as opposed to the lighter shields.

 

I just did some in-game testing, and here is what I found:

The -2 attack bonus that you are supposed to get for using a tower shield does not show up in the dice rolls even though it is mentioned in the description for tower shields.

The armor check penalty for any shield does show up when using weapon finesse. I created a 1st lvl fighter and gave him weapon finesse and twf - he had a +3, +3 when equipped with two shortswords. When I gave him a darkwood buckler, his attacks dropped to +3, +2 (darkwood bucklers have a 0 armor check penalty) but when I gave him a regular bucker (-1 armor check) his attack dropped to +2, +1. The main hand got a -1 penalty due to shield, the off hand got a -1 for shield and a -1 for using a buckler in the off hand.

I guess the moral of the story is that weapon finesse should never be used on a traditional sword 'n shield character - only on single weapon or twf characters. Unless you have a darkwood/mithral buckler it probably isn't worth the penalties.

 

I'm pretty sure i've read somewhere, that you can't/shouldn't use a shield when finessing...
suposedly you are a nimble warrior to use that, and need the balance (much like monkey grip) that the heavy load must be penalizing you.
Maybe the engine it's reading that, and grants the check penalty, as if the charcter it's non proficient with it... :shrug:

About tower shield, the penalization was discussed a long time ago, iirc.
I've checked the protos and i didn't see any penalization there. Tho i recall having a -1 with mi war cleric and a longsword, on an early game...but recently i've used Otis with a tower shield, and didn't noted anything... :scratchhe

 

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Erkper - I still think it's just the buckler itself, is what you are describing.

The buckler penalizes the off hand by unbalancing it, but will also apply the armor check to the attack rolls if one exists. Most people use the good ones so they only notice the -0/-1.

I was just confused because you said it was "any" shield. I don't think a Fighter, with finesse, a rapier and a large shield would take a penalty.

Half Knight - That's what also confused me. A few years ago I made a tank with 2 fighter/x barbarian and I remember never hitting anything. (I assumed fighter would at least be auto proficient with the tower shield.)

One time I looked at the dice rolls and I remembered a phantom negative modifier. I haven't used a tower shield since and I wasn't sure if I was imagining things...

But if what Erkper is saying is true, then we have free reign to use the shields! Woot!

John - I'm riveted. Please update me on your quest for the photos canvas.

 

The buckler gives you the same check penalty to attacks only if you're not proficient with it.
Also, it will give a -1 penalization if you're using the hand where the buckler it's worn, to wield a weapon. Example: a two handed sword will give you a -1 penalization, cos it affects one of the hands that wield the sword, charcter with a sword on each hand, will get the -1 just y one hand, not both.
If you use a longsword and buckler, you'll get no penalizations (if you're proficient) but won't get the extra damage cos that hand isn't really free.It doesn't matter the check penalty to attack rolls; it could have a -10 penalization and if you're proficient with it, you don't have to worry about the attack bonus.

The penalization only applies to certain skills, and it will affect the BA of a non proficient charcter (like a wizard), tho you still have the bonus AC. (for example, you can craft a masterwork tower shield to +3, for a total of +7 to armor! keep it in the inventory, and use it when things get messy) Of course, it would be easier to make a pair of braceletes, but a cleric could be a real tower iwth that

Fighters are automatically proficient with tower shields, as well as any other class proficient with shields. In pnp game you need a special feat for that, not in ToEE.
Those problems of i-even-miss-hitting-the-floor must have been from other source...

...now go! Ah Fong have tower shields, and yes, we have free reign!

 

As much as I enjoy using Tower Shields without penalty, will the penalty bug be rectified? As a thought, perhaps a compromise of -1 penalty can be applied since there is no possiblity of ever using it for full-cover +10AC. Or could that possiblity be created when hitting the Total Defense tab?