The thing that makes toee so special (in my mind) is the turn based combat. I also love the interface with radial menues etc. but as a d&d er the fact that its turn based really brings the game to life. Now for the stupid question. Has anyone thought of creating a mod for the never winter nights game to convert it into the same format ? Would such a mod be possible. ? Would it be worth while even if it where possible ? it seams that thier are a load of never winter moders out there. If it could be done it would be a great way of expanding the circle of eight. and with the official toolset for never winter 2 available it might help out on the toolset problems. The down side of coarse is that changing toolsets would make a lot of the work you guys have done obserlete. (thinking of the keep on the borderlands). just a thought.
Umm, yeah, that's stupid alright. There are already NWN modules for ToEE, and KotB available to download freely from NWVault, the thing is, NWN will never be a true turn based game, and ToEE will never be able to use the NWN toolset, the engines that run them are too different to make them even slightly compatible. The toolset we have for ToEE has been written, tested and used by the modders and players of ToEE for almost two years, with no support or assistance from Atari, and some technical guidance and support from an ex-Troika employee in the early development stages. The fact we have a working toolset for ToEE at all is nothing short of a miracle considering the complexity of the game's engine, and it's peculiar quirks. Comparing ToEE to NWN is paramount to blasphemy around here, suggesting we make NWN modules instead of ToEE modules? That's just plain stupid.
@ tom: You know, I could have taken it as a personal insult, as well as an insult towards the core Co8 modders, but I won't since I'm pretty much sure that it wasn't meant to be an insult. I feel like I'll be losing time answering this, but I'll try anyway: the Circle of Eight was, is, and will be the community dedicated to Troika games (and primarily ToEE). While NWN may not be a completely failed game (for a pop RPG, and for a multiplayer RPG too, that is), it's absolutely clear to all the core modders here that ToEE is in every way superior to it. Even having an older 2D/3D engine instead of the NWN's pure 3D, having no official toolset, having no multiplayer, having multiple bugs, and having little to no official support from Atari, ToEE beats NWN in every way possible when it comes to true D&D atmosphere and representation of the turn-based D&D combat. And believe it or not, but some people are really dedicated to this game and to modding it. And yeah, you know, for instance I have spent a lot of my very own spare time during the last three years (which I could have spent doing many other things, too) gathering every single bit of information I could about this game, and writing tools that will allow other people to make serious modifications to the game. And now that I'm looking back at what I've done here at the Co8, you know, I don't regret it for a single moment. I know that I've done the right thing, and I know that every other core modder who came here and worked with us has done the right thing. And I kind of dislike the way you call our tools, including my tools, "obsolete", especially comparing them to the official NWN toolset. - Agetian
Just for the record, I think that Mr. Tom here was actually just acknowledging that the questionable proposal of jumping ship over to the NWN engine would render our mods and tools obsolete (i.e., we would stop using them because we would be busy with the NWN stuff), not that they are currently obsolete. Bottom line Tom is that there's absolutely no way that what you're suggesting is ever going to happen, for all the reasons that Agetian and Allyx have stated. I personally think that 3D engines aren't well-suited to turn-based or even fantasy type games in general anyway, unless those games limit themselves to really basic combat. 3D engines are best for games where you just fire a lot of bullets.
Now, come on. Neverwinter 2 was not that bad, even with the problems of patches for the Polish verison not coming out (haha! now we've got the newest patch, which was officially pulled due to some technical issues, gah). I mean yes, it was pretty cliché, but it was playable. I still prefer ToEE and even Baldur's Gate, or Planescape Torment, mainly for their climate. I only hope that Bethesda won't screw up Fallout 3... Now, back to regular discussion... Carry on please.
Agetian: A lot of us non-modders who mostly just reap the benefits of all your and other modders work are very very very appreciative of what you guys have offered to us. I for one believe you made most of this possible. My hat's of to you. :thumbsup:
I thought Tom was suggesting we make a Troika version of NWN. It wasn't that great, IMO. Some (or most) of the Baldur's Gate material would make a better dungeon than that. My personal preference is to stick with the ideals we became enamored with when we took an interest in ToEE; that being classic modules. Why screw around with lesser subject matter?
I think it would be just absolutely fantastic if someone were to create the Baldur's Gate series using the ToEE engine. While I'm asking for things, let's see BG1 + expansion and BG2 + expansion. And make sure that you don't leave out any of those subquests! Any of them, I say! Okay, so now we just need to find a group of experienced modders with absolutely nothing else to do for, say, the next 3 - 4 years! Okay, fantasy time is over.
Right, but the idea itself sounds ridiculous to me. NWN modders got their toolset as a free bonus, as a "gift from heaven", so to speak. We, ToEE modders, struggled for years to create a good enough toolset for ourselves, being slighted by most officials (at least the whole Atari part of the officials - that's for sure), and personally I (as one of the toolset makers) still feel responsibility for the fact that certain things are still not made (e.g. the 3D plugins, the visual game map editor, etc.), and I feel responsible for the fact that some things may actually never be made because of my RL issues. And that's why saying that we should go the easy way and switch to the much more pop engine of NWN sounds really stupid to me at this point. Just like everyone else here, I respect this game (ToEE) and I respect the effort of everyone at this board. I simply can't betray all this for the sake of NWN (especially knowing that NWN is an Atari game). Sorry if I offended someone with this post. - Agetian
tom, why did you post somehting about NWN on a forum for ToEE?????? did your brain fall out or something?
Hey, its not the first time folks have asked for BG or some such game on the ToEE engine. I would love a fully 3d turn-based engine myself, but since it ain't gonna happen, we gotta work with what we got. And for the record, Tom, the tools that Agetian has made are generally considered to be superior to the original Atari stuff by the few that have seen both (though lacking access to some features for copyright reasons). What we really need are more people to go, "hey, look at the amazing tools you folks have got! wow, lets make some modules!"
Just for the record i certainly did not mean to imply any critisim of the work done by any of the circle of eight. Niether am i particualy intereseted in Never winter nights as a game ( I dont rate the game-play and i know nothing about programming so couldnt form an opinon of it). Its just that the powers that be at wiserds of the cost have aparenly degreed that turn based gaming is dead or at least a dead end as far as d & d is conserned. I thought (niavely it apears) that combineing the turn based came interface of TOEE with the Never winter toolset might have given a way around this. I was just day dreaming about a world where you could play dungeons over the internet with the TOEE user interface and combat sytem looks like it may never happen :cry:
I can understand why people ask these questions. The problem is that games' companies have decided that turn-based combat is 'dead'. So unless some game manages to persuade them otherwise then it might be a long wait for another true DnD game. And for anyone to mix and match the source codes required to make what you wish happen... well, it's a legal minefield before you even get to how plausible/possible it actually is. If you are after a good turn-based combat RPG, I'd recommend Age of Decadence when it comes out. It's a low-budget, indie game being put together by 'fanatics'. But it does look mighty impressive so far with that taken into consideration.
