The Mersenne Twister . . . Gone Insane

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Gaear, May 2, 2005.

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  1. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    I had my ass handed to me last night in the battle with Lareth's Lieutenant, Sergeant, and guards outside his quarters. Six 3rd level PCs - 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 sorcerer, 1 wizard, 1 ranger, 1 rogue, plus Zert and Fruella, both at 2nd level. My tactics were sound and the tactics of the enemy weren't particularly overpowering. Why did I get beat down? The random number generator.

    It was amazing. I'd say my melee success rate was maybe 20%. Theirs was easily 90%. They almost never missed. They hit, and they hit well.

    Same with ranged. All their guys must have taken the precise shot and point blank shot feats, because they hit my guys in and out of melee. They hit at close range. They hit at long range. They hit after avoiding A-o-Os from my adjacent PCs. They hit my PCs while they were getting hit by A-o-Os from adjacent combatants. They hit period.

    Magic? Forget it. The Wiz was simply not a factor. Sleep: all enemies save. Tasha's: Lieutenant saves. Ray of Enfeeblement: Sarge saves. The only thing the Wiz did do was die.

    The Cleric did okay, he cast bless and bane on everyone, but no one seemed to notice. He eventually went down in a hail of 3 ranged crits in 1 round . . . wtf? Sorcerer was the last PC standing, or rather running. Running away. They caught her though. She died, spell-less, after scoring a melee hit with a dagger on the Sarge. wtf?, version 2.

    A-o-Os? We got A-o-Os. The rogue took his share despite being quite capable with his tumble skills. In fact, he died trying to flank the enemy, A-o-Oed to death like a wounded gazel at the hands of hungry dingos.

    NPCs didn't fare too well either. Zert was KIA before he could desert, having suffered a massive strike from good ol' Sarge, who was eating up the field. Fruella got by for a while on attitude, and actually took the Sarge down near the end. She would have gotten Lewy too, but the crossbow guys weren't about to throw in the towel just yet. Not by a long shot. Not by a short shot either, because four consecutive hits later Fruella hit the turf, and with her fall our hopes were dashed.

    My fighter, on the verge of perishing at -9 HP, was tended to by my medically skilled ranger, who promptly failed the heal. wtf? #3. And this after going down earlier on and being revived by a Cure Light Wounds from the doomed cleric, who infused 4 HP back into him. By the way, Mr. Cleric got A-o-Oed attempting to cast, but didn't get the spell disrupted (yay!). As soon as Fighter guy stood up, he went right back down at the hands of our good buddy the Sarge's A-o-O. He was like a jack-in-the-box, albeit a jack-in-the-box who died in the end, along with everyone else.

    This battle really was all about death. And to think, I was one of those who argued for having Liv make Lareth come out and help. These guys didn't need help. Who needs help when you've got the Mersenne Twister random number generator on your side?

    ;) Gaear
     
  2. elith daan

    elith daan Member

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    Pity you havent got that one on video mate, that was funny as hell!!! 'course it wasent me getting hammered!!!! mind you, i had the brilliant idea of a party of chaotic evil halflings, at first level all they can use is bows because their melee drops 4 points to about 2 when they equip a sword!!!! cast hide from undead, didnt work and got hammered by skeleton gnolls and zombies!!!
     
  3. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    Ouch... I usually end up with half my group buffing their nails as Elmo tries to bash his way up the corridor and failing miserably to connect.

    I have to say that it does sound like an excellent battle though :)
     
  4. 0rion79

    0rion79 Established Member

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    Woah.... just a huge quantity of bad luck? I definitively have to try this fight again! :D
     
  5. Olbaid

    Olbaid Member

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    to quote Strongbad:
    "Holy Crap!"

    i had a similar experience later on in the game. (spoiler??)


    but i guess lots of people have gotten slaughtered at the ToEE guardtower. i'll fix them though. next time i play through the game, maybe i'll train someone to dual-wield Scather and Fragarach.
     
  6. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    Aren't ramdom number generators great, I did the same thing (with a party of two) and went for ages, I didn't even stop to rest or level I just wanted to see how far I got before death and I almost took out the guard tower (straight from the moat house)
     
  7. Shiningted

    Shiningted I changed this damn title, finally! Administrator

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    Amazingly I have never lost that fight (the bugbears and ogre upstairs is another matter...) but i gotta say, i use charm and web in there. Pin em down then get em to take each other out.

    Of course, thats not an issue for a 2nd level party... <tips hat for the attempt> I look forward to it now Liv has improved it.
     
  8. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Looking forward...

    ...to this one myself, once I decide to give the whole thing a shot.
     
  9. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Just to pont out, I consider this battle a RNG fluke, albeit the greatest-blue-streak-fluke-of-all-time. I don't know if Liv has tweaked the battle some, but I'm specifically pointing at the RNG for my thrashing. I actually did this one 4 times trying to figure something out about Lareth. It was #3 that went so horribly wrong. The others weren't bad. I won them without too much trouble.

    Just goes to show that RNGs are, well, suspicious. I know the Mersenne Twister was thought to be a great improvement on the original, and analytically I can grasp that such an outcome as mine is possible. It's the common sense side of me that wonders if something foul-smelling isn't in the wind here. I remember hearing that the devs of PoR:RoMD deliberately skewed the RNG to make their battles harder.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2005
  10. Livonya

    Livonya Established Member

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    In 1.5 I have not changed this battle.

    Kalshane will soon hate me again though, as I have changed this battle for my 2.0 version. These guardsmen and their leaders didn't have the proper number of feats for their race/class, and they also had idiotic feats for what they were using as weapons. So next time it will be a bit more challenging as Guardsmen armed with Longspears will be using Weapon Focus (Longspear) rather than Pointblank Shot.

    I also have added some other content that makes the game a bit harder, but you can turn this off by telling the first kid that you meet in Hommlet that you don't want the harder content. The default will be harder, but if you don't want that you can tell him to turn it off.

    As a side note, I agree the RNG can be crazy. Sometimes I find it insane when I am testing a script. I will set something to happen 1 in 200 times for instance and then I will go to test it and it will happen 2 out of 5 times. It is just weird. Also, I have consistently seen things were trying the same event over and over continually produces a low number.

    I know it is just "luck" and statistics can be very weird. I mean there is absolutely no reason why something rare can't happen over and over, but when it does happen it just strike you as odd.

    - Livonya
     
  11. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    I'm assuming the hate comment is meant as a joke, otherwise I'm seriously misrepresenting myself around here.

    As for this particular change, it sounds good to me. I'm all for enemies being properly built. My main points have always been about adhering to the rules, the module and designer intent.
     
  12. Livonya

    Livonya Established Member

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    It was absolutely meant as a joke.

    - Livonya
     
  13. elith daan

    elith daan Member

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    well according to terry pratchett, isnt it funny how one in a million chances happen nine times out of ten!!!!
     
  14. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Indeed.

    Well, after paying rather close attention to the rolls window the last day or so, as well as reflecting back on all my playing time, I think I'm willing to venture a theory here. I honestly believe that power-characters, i.e. PCs with an 18 for their PR - and most particularly melee-types, are being penalized by some sort of built in equalizer. Just way to many critical misses. I have an 18 STR fighter who gets about twice as many critical misses, consistently, as Fruella, the other fighter on board at the moment. I'm no statistician or numbers guru, but I just don't see how the results could be so reliable. It actually makes sense too - Troika no doubt foresaw that people would be maxing out their scores and would prefer to maintain balance, and thus maintain interest in the game. As Liv has pointed out, constant success will take the shine off of this type of game in a hurry. No shine might equal drops in sales. The answer? Build a penalty into the RNG to level the field for power-characters. It's not so much a matter of average rolls, just the preponderance for critical misses with 18 STR characters.

    If all this sounds too conspiratorial, I apologize. I may well be off my rocker. But the figures are there . . . for me at least.

    I suppose some type of data-gathering effort would be in order to really demonstrate this, or debunk it.
     
  15. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    Random # generators are tricky anyway, but it makes you wonder when Elmo misses the giant tick 5 times in a row and a pc fighter steps in and nails it first shot. The logbook doesn't track npc's so it's hard to tell who has the most criticals, consectutive hit/miss, etc. You would have to track something like that over a long period of time and I'm not sure if it would "prove" anything.
     
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