The Balor fight really needs to be nerfed.

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by JDR13, Oct 25, 2021.

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  1. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    I know this has been brought up in the past, but the Balor fight in the Fire Node borders on ridiculous.

    Level 11 party along with Zaxis, Darley, and Falrinth. Even with Zaxis casting Inspire Courage beforehand, the entire party fails their savings throws when the Balor cast Fear every...fucking....time. In fact, I'm wondering if that's even working properly because I haven't had a single character make a saving throw against that in about a dozen tries nows.

    Also, what the hell is the Balor's AC? My dwarven fighter with Moradin's Soul Hammer, and various buffs including Haste, consistently misses with all four of his attacks despite having +21 to hit.

    I appreciate a challenge, but this fight shouldn't be harder than Zuggtmoy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
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  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Well, what do the dice roll breakdowns say to all this?
     
  3. sigofmugmort

    sigofmugmort Established Member Supporter

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    The Balor should have an ac of 35 but it is actually a LOT higher (40+ range). Prot from evil "should" stop the fear but does not. balor is a cr 20 creature and "should" be weaker then Zuggtmoy (cr around 28).

    Of course, it should have an Blasphemy spell not fear, good creatures hitting it in melee should have to make a fort. check to avoid temp. strength loss, and it should explode for 100pts of damage on death so... it could be worse
     
  4. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    So is there anything that actually works against the fear effect? With the effect lasting 10 rounds against the entire party, it's basically an insta-win for the Balor unless I can take him down in 3 rounds. (He seems to always cast Fear in the 3rd round.)
     
  5. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Remove fear should work I think. Possibly Calm Emotions too, not sure.
    Having a paladin around with aura of courage is useful too.
     
  6. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    Zombies too! they fear nothing. heh. But are more of a cleave liability with the Balor, though...

    I think this battle is fine. It is extra fun when it summons another Balor or 2 more Hezrous (stench is imho more annoying than the fear effect).

    So I checked this battle from my last save of whatever beta version I was using.

    • * The fear has a small bug in that the icon displays the effect whether or not the character saved against it. Only those that do not save behave afraid. DC 25, which is pretty reasonable. Check the log when he casts it to see who made the save.
    • this is one battle where spell penetration and gr. sp are useful feats. (I notice you have a lot of casters that can't fight melee well). Balor SR is 28.
      • With sp+gr sp and lvl 11 caster, this makes +15 to the die roll. Something like cone of cold can do consistent damage if pass SR.
      • His touch attack AC is 16 which means landing a ray of enfeeblement is about 50/50 with a 11 mage that has some AB buffs (5 BAB + dex, heroism, etc).
    • Death ward is effective vs Balor finger of death.
    • Balor AC is 36, so lvl 11 fighter (11 BAB + >7 (herosim, +2 weapon +3 strength) = 18 will hit on on 18+
    • His DR makes it more difficult and take longer unless you have cold or holy weapons.
    • Balor Dispel Magic can be a pain on the buffs, but that's fair IMHO.

    Seems fair to me. But you need some good AB hitters for melee... and/or casters with spell penetration if you want to use magic on the Balor. Melee is easiest.
     
  7. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Gah, ninja'd by Hammyh. I'll just add that if you are seeing a higher AC break it down, there may be cover involved. Also, what sort of Protection against Evil are you using? The spell, the mass spell, Circle etc?
     
  8. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    My Wizard has both Spell Penetration feats, and I'm still only hitting him with 2 or 3 magic missiles each time I cast.

    As for the fear effect, I'm pretty sure he's getting everyone every time.
     
  9. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    Like I mentioned, at SR 28, a 11 wizard with GRsp +4 = 15. 13+ roll is needed to pass SR. You will miss more than 50% of the time.

    Tbh, ray of enfeeblement and clumsiness can make this battle much safer, if they can be landed. As well as all the other demons. Rays may also suffer from shooting into combat, though, so without certain feats = -4 to hit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
  10. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    There's a significant degree of luck involved as well. For instance, sometimes he only summons a group of Quasits which are easily disposed of. Sometimes it's a Glabrezu. Sometimes it's a Hezrou. And one time he actually summoned 3 Hezrous!
     
  11. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    Also in the beta the Balor does die with a big fireball explosion. Not sure of the numbers, though.

     
  12. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    If that is the case in the version that you use, then you should submit a save game bug report. Check the battle log to be certain that characters are feared even when they make the save.

    In my game the icon doesn't mean much, since it is applied to every portrait.
     
  13. hammyh

    hammyh Established Member

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    Iirc, the fear does not get prevented by protection from...whatever - lvl 1 spell - but the more dangerous Dominate is prevented.
     
  14. Oleg Ben Loleg

    Oleg Ben Loleg Established Member Supporter

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    The potion of greater Heroism for your front fighter makes all the difference in that fight. You should have one by now from one of the Senshock/Barkinar chests (I don't remember exactly).
     
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  15. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Yeah, I thought OP said something about Protection but I either missed an edit or I'm hallucinating.
     
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