Skill questions

Discussion in 'The Keep on the Borderlands' started by ConjurerDragon, Jul 26, 2015.

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  1. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Established Member Supporter

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    I´m going to recreate some of my partymembers and want to distribute skillpoints differently and I´m unsure if I understood the Speak Language skill rules correct.

    The KotB Players Guide says that PC´s have some languages automatically, get bonus languages depending on race and have to buy skillpoints to get more languages.

    Say I want to create a Gnome Wizard. According to the table in the Guide Gnomes already start with Elvish, Goblin, Gnoll, Giant, Draconic.

    If the wizard would have an INT of 16, so an INT bonus of +3,
    does that mean that the gnome wizard would have three languages IN ADDITION to the 5 Gnomes automatically have, so he would add Gnoll, Sylvan, Outsider? That would mean that a INT16 Gnome Wizard speaks all available languages without spending even a single point in "Speak Languages" and spending any skillpoint there would be wasted?

    Or do the "automatic" (A) languages include the bonus languages from high INT and he would need to spend 3 points in Speak language to speak all languages?
     
  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Do Gnomes get Draconic? O well he's a wizard, gets it either way.

    Right the first time, he'd speak all languages through his Int bonus.
     
  3. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Established Member Supporter

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    I have no idea if they actually get it. I just assumed they would because of the Player´s Guide table, copied without format from the pdf that came with the download:

    IMO considering that every automatic language is a skill point saved the non-human races get too many automatic languages. Sure Half-Orcs may be in every realm and speak the local language in addition to Orc - but would all Half-Orcs practically be interpreters knowing 5 languages automatic? :roll:
    And it weakens the point in illiterate Barbarians having to painfully cross-class skill languages - if the half-orc barbarians all already know 5 languages...
    Or do negative INT modifiers actually substract from the number of automatic languages and not only add to them?

    O.k. then I can spend those precious skillpoint elsewhere :thumbsup:


    About Animal Handling: Is there a reason that Animal companions of Rangers and Druids need training and can be given orders how to fight outside combat but familiars of Wizards/Sorcerers do not and simply atttack the closest enemy?

    In my current playthrough I simply assume that Buttercup is my Paladins "special" mount - at least that´s better than using coconuts. ;)
    However are there plans for the animal merchant to sell heavy warhorses too (even if they never can be ridden)?
     
  4. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    No, even an idiot can communicate.
    No doubt, but I introduced the languages with an acute awareness that some people aren't going to want them - ToEE functioned fine without languages - and are going to resent having to put skill points into them at all. Also, they are specifically meant to be an incentive to use demi-humans, since various benefits for them - Stonecunning, non-occurring racial enemies or whatever etc - don't occur, while the benefits for a human - extra feat, extra skill points - are things every human PC can exploit to the max.

    The trade-off is you have to use that demi-human as your face character. So you may get 'free skill points' for your Gnome Illusionist in Speak Language, but you have to sink those into cross-class skills like Diplomacy that only get you half the benefit.

    Of course everyone can hire Angela, or have an Elven or Halfling Rogue as their face character if they want, but people will deal with it as suits their game.

    PS A Half-Orc face character, with -2 Cha, makes no sense.

    EDIT: Missed these first go through.
    They're completely different mods of completely different situations: but yes, the familiars (and the mercenaries etc, all the AI followers) should be commandable in some way.
    Again, I'd add Paladin's mounts if I could (in an appropriate meaningful way). But Buttercup is too overpowered to be anything but a 'stand her ground' NPC. Think of her as a Dwarven Defender.
    By the hammer of Thor, NO! Then I'd have to re-write the whole "where are your horses?" running gag.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2015
  5. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Established Member Supporter

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    Then why is Buttercup a "Bison" (STR 22) instead of a more docile pack animal like a donkey or mule? Or if you wanted the appearance why not a Yak or an "Ox" with a lower STR than the MM Bison that is normally CR 2?

    It´s even a bargain with 8 +4 gold when normally the Ox alone would cost 15
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm
     
  6. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    It was priced at 8gp as per donkey / mule (the nearest equivalent for it's use as a pack animal).

    But you saw that when you posted the link, just as you know there is no donkey / mule model. Which makes this whole conversation another piece of pointless argumentativeness. I'm happy to listen to bug reports, answer sensible questions or receive feedback, but if you are just going to argue the toss whenever I explain the reasons behind the choices that were made, don't expect me to respond.
     
  7. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Established Member Supporter

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    On the page that I linked is nothing about the price of donkeys so I have no idea what you think I saw when I posted that link. What I searched for was the price of an Ox as in the balance thread too much gold was mentioned and as Buttercup is labeled as an Ox and if an Ox should cost 15 gold then 8 gold + 4 for the Saddlebags would be a bargain and the opposite of trying to siphon off surplus money by actually demanding the real price.

    With the exception of the monsters I saw in ToeE or KotB I have no idea what models for animals exist. A while ago I did not even know that models simply could be shrank or enlarged to have goblin zombies or other monsters based on existing models re-used in a different size or colour. And when you wrote that there would be no Paladin mounts or warhorses I took that to mean that there could be no horses and did not assume that that would mean donkeys or mules would be impossible too.

    Perhaps you should stop assuming what I know and calm down?

    It was mentioned that there was too much money in the game - but the 15g Ox costs 8.

    You mentioned that the Ox probably is too strong and might unbalance the game if it does anything but guard - that´s why I asked why Buttercup has to use the STR 22 of a Bison at all and won´t simply be made weaker as a docile pack animal Ox could be expected to be weaker than a Bison living in the wild.

    You mentioned that the Ox costs 8 because that´s the price for a donkey as the Ox is just used as a pack animal - then it could just use a STR score between 10 (Donkey) to Mule or Light Horse (16). Even a heavy Warhorse has only a STR of 18. That would make it a less likely tactic to have Buttercup guard and the party assemble behind it while the Ox acts as the meatshield for low-level parties that even kills more enemies than the PC´s themselves.

    And if a lower STR score would be not enough then the Ox could use a 5footstep away from enemies after it made it´s attack - after all even wild Bisons are described to be more likely to flee enemies than to fight.
     
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