Seriously, WTF am I doing wrong?

Now see, if you said that before we could've avoided this discussion and Ted would've been happy. oke:

 

it seems the consensus is now that a paladin should fall from a drinking contest (although, in that other forum the opposite is the case)...

But it seems to me both cases are just considering the morality of the issue rather then the game design aspect. This is a game... this means several things.
As Gaear said, the ability to implement various situations is limited.
It WILL be played by people of varying opinions on this moral issue and they will expect different result... the game penalizing them for drinking could be considered extremely offensive to some to the point where they rage quit the game, in fact some have expressed that exact sentiment. (I would like to point you at Arcanum's gnome conspiracy issue)...
Now the question is, can the game be made fun for all? I think it can with the following:
1. Give the option for the player to express that drinking is evil and should never be done. They give a little speech in the tavern, the drinking contest quest is marked completed (it is important that it is NOT marked as failed) with the result of "you refused to participate" and they get "teetotaler" instead of "champion of drinking contest" for their history. They also get the XP as if they won the competition.
2. Let the player participate in it normally... there is no falling involved.

A person who believes alcohol is EVIL and should cause the paladin to fall will chose option 1, he gets positive reinforcement from the game (aka, "quest completed" + XP), has fun, and continues on.

A person who finds the very notion of a paladin falling from a drinking contents to be ridiculous (or is playing a dwarf) will choose option 2, now he has fun too because he doesn't fall from it.
Whether you personally agree or disagree that drinking is EVIL, you could certainly agree that there is hefty debate on it and that its not co8's or TOEE's place to render this sort of moral judgement and shoehorn it into a game.

Plus making a paladin fall over this is a dick move. Because most people would never even expect it and wouldn't know any better. At absolute worst the game should simply not let you participate by having only one dialog option "as a paladin I may not participate in such debauchery" rather falling... neigh, intentionally being tripped in such a manner.

please note that while I am of the opinion drinking in excess is stupid but not evil, I respect other's opinion that it is evil, enough to say that they shouldn't be penalized for having that opinion. Thus the notion that if you vehemently refuse to join such a contest you still get your XP (the contest does not involve any reward other then XP... thus it is purely "roleplaying XP" as far as I can tell, and either joining in or giving a moralizing speech count as "roleplaying")

 

When I gave myself alcohol poisoning down in the Florida Keys many, many years ago in a galaxy far, far away, I had a religious experience and met god. He didn't want to throw me out of his awareness but rather the opposite. He told me he loved me and it hurt him worse than it hurt myself to engage in such reckless, feckless, self destructive behavior. He told me he died so that I would meet the all-father with a clear conscious. I was forgiven before the act even became a thought in my mind.

It's only the priests that want to demonize a person's behavior, not the god. All fault must lie with the priests, in fantasy just as it does in real life. Organized religion is nothing more eloquent than mind control. A truly spiritual paladin would strike down a priest because of their misguided, usurping pretentiousness and twisting the god's tenents to fit their personal goals and subverting/brainwashing weak innocents to their foul and rancid agenda. A priest of Cuthbert or Heironomous (sp?) is no different than a priest of Orcus or Asmodeus. As a matter of fact, the priests of Orcus and Asmodeus would be more in the right and have more of a right to be priests as they truly represent their god's views.

 

Let me state a few positions.

I think the Paladin falling is inconvenient too. That's why they are rarely in my parties. I also agree that falling is inconsistently implemented in the game.

1. Public drunkeness is both a chaotic and evil act. It is chaotic because it is automatically disorderly and may be against the law and morality. (Depending on what 'morality' is.) It is evil because it is a selfish disregard for the welfare of others. (In our society it routinely results in destruction of property and the injury or death of innocents.)

2. A drinking contest's goal is extreme drunkeness. And there are ALWAYS additional consequences.

3. If you are part of a group that is engaged in wrongful acts, you are condoning those acts, if not abetting them.

Some say that all that is necessary for Evil is for Good men to fail to act. I say that if no one acts to deter Evil, there are NO good men present.

I knew that my position would be unpopular before I said anything. I feel the same as many people here do: this Paladin falling thing needs to be fixed.

I REALLY appreciate the opportunity to have had ny say in this matter. And thank you for doing me the honor of arguing with me.

 

it seems as if you are trying to say that your opinions on the subject are non subjective fact.

I happen to completely disagree with every single one of them. My opinion and your opinion on the subject differs. I recognize that it is merely our opinion and not a universal truth we are arguing about it.

The thing is, what our opinion is on whether drinking is evil or not bears little relevance to how it should treated in the game. You believe that drinking, especially in a contest is Chaotic and Evil. excellent, you should get the choice to express that in the GAME and not be penalized for it.
I believe that drinking is neither, and the drinking contest is an amusing and fun thing. I should be able to do so in the GAME without being penalized for it too.

 

Do the usual people end up on the floor unconcious, so you can steal their stuff?

 

Well, IIRC a paladin falls if he fails to act LG. Drinking contest may not be "evil" but is certainly a chaotic action, not something a "stick-up-the-ass" character would proceed to do, so falling is completely justified. Besides, from a gaming standpoint, there need to be some sort of drawbacks for all the extra bonuses Pallys get over fighters.

But well, it's implemented spottily in TOEE, since after all it's not a game centered on text-based interaction, and reputation based on battle actions are somewhat hard to implement.

As for the alternative scenario for the contest, sounds pretty good. It'd probably need to have a pretty high CHA or diplomacy requirement to succeed though, alongside a class or alignment requirement. It's not that easy to just walk into a bar and then talk everyone there into refusing to drink for the rest of their lives. As a side-effect, it'd be cool if, say, the innkeeper doubled the inn-prices for you, or refused to give/auto-botch the Furnok quest, since he now hates you for negatively affecting his sales...

BTW, the "champion of drinking contest" says something about St. Cuthbert followers disliking you (just like Old Faith for Dragonslayer rep), but I never noticed it happen. It'd be nice if that could affect shop prices somehow, or whatnot. No idea if that's even possible to do though.

 

Paladins are NOT a stick up the arse characters... They can be, and they are often forced to be by people who make rules like that...

by the RAW they fall for any EVIL act and for GROSS VIOLATIONS of the law. Do you think it is a gross violation to drink?

Besides, I disagree on the notion that it is chaotic at all, so where is that "certainly" coming from?

Well, I don't know about convincing everyone in the bar to never drink again ever... I could see convincing a few (1 or 2) people to give up drinking, and a few more to drink in moderation... but not convince everyone to totally abstain for the rest of their life.
then again if your diplomacy is off the scale maybe you could ... how high a diplomacy check would it take to convince an entire bar to abstain from drinking?

 

Does mother nature take away a druid's abilities if he tramples a flower? Does a wizard lose all spell casting abilities if he use a weapon and drives it through a thief's eye who he caught trying to rip him off? Does a thief lose his abilities if he pays for something legitimately? Does a ranger lose his abilities if he rents an apartment/house inside city limits? Does a barbarian lose their abilities if they prance around, remain calm, formulate a dissertation on the uses of magic in society and wear a rapier to fight with? I know. A monk loses his abilities if they wear armor, right?

 

Wow, I've started an indepth debate but the 1st couple posts helped me out. Looks like I'm a tard and just gotta know what I'm doing in this game.

Friggin game has been stored for a few years before I found this site with the patches to make it work. Outstanding.

Is this the front end thing? How do I do that? Sure it may be cheating but I need help.

 

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/t...comprehensive-console-command-list-65032.html
http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1040

basically press the tilde key (shift + the key to the left of 1)
this is tilde: ~

that will open a console, in which you can type python (a programming language) code and the game engine will run it. You can use it invoke functions that the game uses to do things.

for example, to get to level 3 you need 3000XP, you can use the ingame function that sets XP by typing:
game.party[X].stat_base_set(stat_experience,Y)
where X is the party member number counting from the left, starting from zero, and Y is the value you want to set...

so you would have to type (can't copy paste, sorry):
game.party[0].stat_base_set(stat_experience,3000)

after which you can simply press the "up" button to bring the last typed command and change it to say the number of the next party member, in a 5 member party it will be:
game.party[1].stat_base_set(stat_experience,3000)
game.party[2].stat_base_set(stat_experience,3000)
game.party[3].stat_base_set(stat_experience,3000)
game.party[4].stat_base_set(stat_experience,3000)

And thats all there is to it.
Doing all the "fed ex" missions in town takes you to level 2... with between 1000 to 1500XP if I remember correctly. Going that one extra level up to level 3 increases your survivability a lot and is a more sensible starting point IMAO for all but the most hardcore players.

 

It's a little quicker to use levelup and everybody goes up at once. Use it twice and you're at level 3. In the console just type in levelup and hit enter.

 

Ask any charOp Person and you will find out paladins are WEAKER then fighters and barbarians... Fighters get extra feats which can increase their power, paladins get "detect evil" and "immunity to fear" other fluffy abilities that are practically useless (especially compared to extra feats, or barbarian rage and damage reduction, etc).

 

I never use a paladin or ranger or barbarian for fighting. It's gotta be either a straight fighter and a fighter/rogue or just 2 straight fighters, because straight fighters are just brutally brutal. Give them holy ranseurs with some extra abilities, all the correct feats and an enlarge spell and just sit back and watch the massacre. Straight fighters are the ones that make sure that the fights with the failor, zuggtmoy and anything lesser is done in 1 round or the beginning of the second.