Rogue builds

Hi guys. What are some cool, effecient melee rogue builds? I'm creating a rogue7/barb1/fighter1/?. Barb is for fast movement for repositioning, fighter for feats. What would be a good third class? I would like to hear more about good rogue builds as well. Thanks!

 

Not sure if it's what you're looking for, but adding a level of wizard or sorc would put all their spells on your class list and you could then use wands without investing in use magic. Hellllooooooo true strike sneak attack. Not to mention invisibility wands.

A level of bard lets you run around all day singing inspire courage, giving the whole party +1 to hit and damage, which is a nice little freebie. The skills you get synch well with rogue skills too.

And of course 2 levels of ranger gets you free TWF or rapid shot, if you want either. Plus full BAB, good skill points, and decent HP.

 

How about a rogue7f/fighter1/barb1/monk1 for the flurry of blows with monk weapons?

 

thats pretty complicated and with the monk option you can't wear armour or you lose your monk abilities.

 

The point is to not need armor with the high dex + wisdom bonus

 

Barbarians cannot be lawful.
Monks have to be lawful.

In pnp it's possible to make such charcter, not in ToEE (unless you console cheat)

 

I think your original intuition -- Rogue as a major class, and fighter and barbarian as secondary classes -- is pretty much the best for a generalist melee rogue build (I had one in my very first ToEE parties... he was also a half-orc, for added strength).

With the spiked chain, weapon finesse, combat reflexes and high dex you'll be a walking fireball (elsewhere someone has pointed out that this combo with whirlwind attack is even deadlier... I think the feat progression for whirlwind attack is very demanding... perhaps too demanding). Rage is very useful, and the additional fighter feats will boost your capacities. Also, if a party wizard casts improved invisibility, and enlarge person, then you sneak attack at will, up to 15ft away, aren't attacked back, and can AoO some 4-5 times per round (besides getting one attack against each person in range, at full attack bonus).

EDIT: The feat progression to reach whirlwind attack with a spiked chain would involve this (assuming a non-human Ftr/Rog following this progression: Ftr1/Ftr2/Rog1/Rog2/Ftr3/Rog3/Ftr4/Rog4/Ftr5/Rog5/Ftr6):

Lvl1: Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)
Ftr1 bonus: weapon finesse (dex bonus to attack for chain)
Ftr2 bonus: combat reflexes (multiple AoO)
Lvl3: dodge
Lvl6: Combat expertise (in a tight spot can improve AC, while still getting AoOs)
Ftr4: Mobility
Lvl9: Spring attack
Ftr6: Whirlwind attack

At this point you're level 11, and the game is nearly ended.

If you start as a human, then you can get this combination as early as level six, but with a slightly lighter rogue element (Ftr1/Rog1/Ftr2/Rog2/Ftr3/Ftr4):

Lvl1: Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)
Ftr1: weapon finesse (DEX bonus to attack for chain)
Human bonus: combat reflexes (multiple AoO)
Ftr2: dodge
Lvl3: Combat expertise (in a tight spot can improve AC, while still getting AoOs)
Lvl6: Mobility
Ftr4: Spring attack
Ftr6: Whirlwind attack

Also, you should notice the Ability requirements: high DEX, INT13. If you later want to add Power attack, and cleave, you'll have to have a STR13 as well.

 

Matmaisan, you can save the feat for spiked chain...
The difference applies only in pnp games, where the spiked chain give a bonus to tripping, but not in ToEE, so you can use a glaive for the same reach, and more damage.

 

I never tested it, but the spiked chain should be different in a number of ways.

With all pole-arms you are not supposed to be able to threaten, much less attack anyone adjacent to you (I know this is not implemented). With the spiked chain, you should.

That would mean that the threat area of a spiked chain includes all eight five feet squares adjacent to the character AND all the squares up to ten feet away. With a Glaive you should get only the latter.

Another advantage of the spiked chain is that it is a light weapon, which you can use weapon finesse with, whereas the Glaive is not... the difference? well, you want your rogue to be nimble, and wear one of those elven chains so he can tumble around opponents. You want him to have high DEX so you get plenty of AoOs. If you have power attack, you can actually transfer your dex bonus to damage, which is quite awesome when facing lots of low level adversaries. If you're using combat expertise, you get to use dex for your AC bonus, and then again for your dodge bonus.

Assume a rogue5/fighter5 with 20DEX, 14STR, the super dupper elven chainmail, power attack, combat expertise, combat reflexes, and whirlwind attack. At the beginning of an encounter most enemies charging him get AoOed while closing in (I know this is partially broken). He tumbles around easily into the middle f the enemies attacking him. Whirlwind attack will be roughly one attack against each enemy at +8BAB, +5DEX +other bonuses. Damage will be +2STR minimum (at lvl 10 his chain should be enchanted, perhaps shocking). If invisible, he'll do +3d6 damage to each enemy hit. If the foes are not too hard to hit, he can transfer up to +8 to damage. Assuming he's in a tight spot and gets attacked by tougher foes, he can transfer up to 8 points to AC (and still gets Whirlwind attack and AoOs!). He's a very versatile combatant.

 

I've been playing a while, and I'm really starting to dig my fighter2/rogue2/barb1. Will prob end up f5/r3/b2, and f5/r5/b4 once past the level cap. Diplomancy skills are taken care of by cleric, so thieving skills can be kept maxed. BAB only 1 behind a pure fighter, and enough feats to aim for Whirlwind attack. Flanking enemies with 40 move and sneak attacking them is a sweet bonus as well.

 

i posted a fairly rogue heavy build in your monk thread, 2 ftr / 2 rgr / 5 monk / 11 rogue using 2 rods of the python.

the feats youd want would probably be like

human - power attack
lvl 1- cleave
ftr 1- combat reflexes*
ftr 2- whatever you want
lvl 3- whatever you want
rng 2 - twf style **
lvl 6- great cleave
lvl- 9 imp twf
lvl - 12 imp crit quarterstaff
lvl 15 - whatever you want
lvl 18 - whatever you want
rog 10 - crippling strike

*change to whatever else you want if you can take it as a 2nd lvl monk, i forget but i remember that toee didnt allow you to choose all of the feats that a monk really could get as bonus feats.

** get rid of the ranger levels and take twf if this ends up not counting in the feat tier, but if i recall correctly it does in toee. (replace with 2 ftr or rog, depending on your value of bab/feats or sneak attack/rogue special feature)

be sure to abuse the ring of invisibility for maximum sneak attack rape later on.

possible fill ins for the whatevers: dodge, mobility, two weapon defense, weapon focus quarterstaff

 

I gave this a try and it was ok, but not great. If you dual wield 2 rods you do not get a +2 bonus for a light offhand weapon. This means you are at -4 to hit compared with using a single weapon.

At level 20 your BAB would be 15/10/5 for the multiclass build you have listed.

With Flurry of Blows activated (-1 BAB penalty at Monk level 5), Haste (+1 BAB, extra attack...made the assumption you will use this spell) and dual wielding two rods (-4, ignoring any weapon bonuses here) your BAB would be:

main hand = 11/11/11/6/1
off hand = 11/6

Alternatively, if you wield a single rod, or even better a 2 handed staff (1.5 str bonus):

15/15/15/10/5

On wimpy enemies the dual rods do more damage because you will probably hit all 7 times. Unfortunately they will be long dead before you get a chance to use all 7 attacks! On the harder enemies you will find yourself missing a lot. At least this is what I found when I tried both routes. You could always remove the off hand rod for the harder battles, but then why did you invest in TWF, ATWF (TWD possibly as well)?

If you do want to dual wield, why not two Halfing Siangham? Only 1d4 instead of 1d6, but if you are going to enchant them all to hell, I'd rather have the +2 BAB. Plus then you can go with weapon finesse and pump dexterity instead of strength, giving an even better AC.

I also tried the spiked chain rogue that matmaisan explained, and he stole the show. Had a crappier AC and lower saving throws, but the term "walking fireball" really did apply to him. Going to have to try whirlwind next time.

-Molag

 

update on my build after playing it: i'm about lvl 14 or 15 now, and sadly i havent even found a rod of the python yet haha. its been a while so i dont remember where any are. i'm holding on to a rod of the viper atm but im actually using mostly 2 rods of smiting, a sling, and amulet of mighty fists +3. i got quick draw, point blank shot, and rapid shot, so i can switch up my gear, put weapons away for stunning fists, and get an extra shot in out of sneak with the sling.

;( @ the bab, are you sure? how does that work out? i figured 4 lvls of bab at first would push it over into 4 attacks by 20. also, i almost never attack without having used invisibility first so you get a +2 to hit coming out of invis.

i believe i read that the rods of the python still give 1.5 str each, but im not sure if it was evidence or speculation.

i'm not even using monk weapons atm because i haven't found 2 of the rods that count as quarterstaves. i actually added in quick draw, point blank shot, and rapid shot as well, because i like to switch weapons up for whatever suits the moment. i tend to carry 4 or more weapons of different damage types etc. short answer? it makes me feel good. after all why be a monk without ridiculous kung fu ;D

Why not one siangham? Are the crits better or something? You only get a light weapon bonus for the off hand iirc. And my personal reason for not using them is because I play solo so I have to use the best of what I find with this type of character. Crap, why did I only try to properly punctuate this paragraph?

any reach weapon will do the trick, in toee they can all hit adjacent. it will save you a feat and possibly better crits depending on what you pick, unless you like the chain for flavor/accuracy in that case i cant blame you.

also (spoiler):

Spoiler

have you ever tried using oolghrist? with a decent intimidate score you can boss him into your party. he starts with 10 foot reach with anything, so if you give him a reach weapon his threatened area is pretty impressive. plus the game has no way to calculate RHD or LA so he's easy to level up too. and the whole fact that almost nothing in the game can kill him is a bit cheesy but oh well ;D

 

2 Fighter = + 2 BAB
2 Ranger = + 2 BAB
5 Monk = +3 BAB
11 Rogue = +8 BAB
------------------------
Total = +15 BAB

The Monk and Rogue BAB goes like this 0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6 etc.

I tried this myself by consoling in 2 rods and a belt of +6 strength (gave him 26) on a level 1 guy. Normal strength bonus is +8, and at 1.5x it would be +12. Just swing at someone a bunch of times and record the maximum damage you get. It is pretty easy to determine that when dual wielding two rods you do not get 1.5x for either one. To be extra sure, repeat this test wielding only one rod and you will see the 1.5x bonus.

I'd only use 2 if I planned on getting weapon-specific feats, such as improved crit, the one that gives +1 BAB etc. With the siangham improved crit would be a bit of a waste! And if you are going solo, then indeed you have to make do with what you find. My last time through was with a Rogue fighter and a Monk(2)/Wizard(Y). I died A LOT in the beginning and ended up having to abuse the enchantment spells to increase my party size. Then later once the wizard could craft the game got too easy. The rogue had whirlwind and great cleave. The wizards job was to buff him all to hell then sit invisible and watch the carnage. It is amazing how deadly a spike chain rogue is with the above mentioned feats and improved invisibility. Made the game pretty boring unfortunately, so next time I'm going to have to try solo, and no spell casters. I find the game a lot more enjoyable when every round could mean death!

I like the spike chain because you can use weapon finesse. The rogue I mentioned above was Monk 3, Fighter 6, Rogue 11. Monk for the increased speed, better saves, wisdom bonus to AC. Stats started at:
Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 15
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

Yeah, I actually rolled those stats, and it took close to two hours! By level 16 she had
Str: 22 (belt +6)
Dex: 28 (gloves +6)
Con: 18 (ioun stone +2)
Int: 15
Wis: 24 (amulet +6)
Cha: 14 (ioun stone +2)

The Dex + Wisdom bonuses gave +16 to AC, tack on +5 bracers for +21. Then there was the +3 ring of deflection I found for a total of 34 AC. None of the armor I found came close to matching this. Then the wizard spells got added (haste, enlarge, imp. invis., stoneskin, heroism (the +4 version), etc.). And thats when the fun ended!

-Molag