Is there any point to using improved feint with TWF? I'm using it with my rogue, but even as a move action it takes up half a bar. Does that mean I can only do one attack even if I am dual wielding? In that case, I might as well invest in str on my rogue and use a 2 handed weapon since I dont have a flanker
Yep, you can't use improved feint and full attack. Improved feint is used to get a sneak attack in even when you're character is visible and not flanking. It is not meant to give 3+ sneak attacks for the rogue. If you want that, and you have no flanker, the trick would be to use improved invisibility on your rogue, or glitterdust/blindness on the enemies... if they can't see you, they get no AC bonus to DEX and therefore can be sneak attacked.
Indeed there's a point in using improved feint with TWF. That feat is, in my opinion, one of the keys for making a deadly individualist out of a rogue. Just consider the following points: 1- First of all, you must keep in mind that TWF is almost if not always better than two-handed for a rogue. With his sneak attack (the key element in all of this), which adds 1d6 for each odd level to the damage roll of every successful hit, a dual-wielding rogue with two short swords (1d6 each) not only can deal far more damage but also has more chances to do so than a rogue with a greataxe (1d12) in a full attack action, despite the advantage in weapon damage and x1.5 STR damage of the latter. That is, of course, if you make your attacks in the proper circumstances for a sneak attack, one of which is with the 'feint' move. 2- Secondly, and I think here is where there's more confusion, one must be aware that the "lost AC from DEX (and thus, sneak attackable) state" of a foe achieved with an improved feint lasts until the end of the feinter's turn following the one in which the feint was made. The confusion comes from the description of the 'feint' move in the manual, which reads something like that the attack following a successful feint ignores the foe's AC from DEX, which can be interpreted as if only the immediate next single attack after a feint obtains the benefits from it, when the reality is that the feint effects lasts until the end of the feinter's following turn (keep in mind that that description was made for the 'feint' (not the "improved" one), which requires a standard action, that is, you can't attack in that turn, so "next turn" is implicit in "next attack"). In other words: a dual-wielding rogue with 'improved feint' will not only sneak attack with the single attack after a successful feint on the same turn, but also with all of the attacks (up to four in the vanilla game) of his full-attack action in his netx turn. Neat, isn't is? 3- And finally, after understanding how the improved feint works, it only remains for us to determine whether or not it's worth spending a feat. In fact, one could argue that the single extra sneack attack you can obtain with improved feint over the ordinary one isn't a big deal... but look at it this way: feints can fail; they require a bluff check Vs. the foe's sense motive plus base attack bonus score, and they aren't always easily overcomable. Sometimes, the success in feinting is the difference between easily killing an enemy and easily being killed by it, and while the ordinary feint takes a standard action, which means that you can't do anything more in that turn besides moving, with the 'improved feint' feat, which makes the feint a move action, you're allowed to do other standard and move actions after a feint, which includes... right: another feint! Therefore, we can conclude that having the 'improved feint' feat virtually duplicates your chances of feinting the enemy. That means you have not only twice the chance of feinting a single enemy, but also the possibility to feint two enemies in the same turn so that you can distribute the attacks of your next turn's full-attack action as sneak attacks amongst them :thumbsup: Whenever I talk about the improved feint feat, I remember that character I made long time ago, when I was still a beginner at ToEE, for a solo game: Magali, neutral good female human, dex-based pure rogue; I remember her and how I beat the hill giant of Emridy Meadows and his bear companion at level six with 'dodge', 'weapon finesse', 'combat expertise' and 'improved feint' just by maximizing my AC with fight defensively and combat expertise at maximun (and sneaking to get the green elven armor before fighting with them, too ) and then keeping feinting and hitting them without moving (well, I had to move once to approach the giant trespassing its threatened area because of its reach, but that's it). It was hard to hit them with such low attack bonus... but they never got to hit me! Since then, the 'improved feint' feat is a must for almost every rogue character I create, whether multiclassed or pure, alone or with a party and single or dual-wielder.
