Quandry: Small Weapons

I regularly include Humans, Elves, Half Elves, Dwarves and Half Orcs in my ToEE parties, but have always steered clear of small races like gnomes and halflings.

In my current run through I'm playing a chaotic evil party that includes a halfling rogue. He is a low strength, high dex weapon finesse type.

So now to my quandry. Where are all the small weapons in the game? He can use daggers as finesse weapons, but that seems to be about it. A longsword is too large for him to use; he doesn't have proficiency with the halfling siagham (sp?). I was really hoping for this character to use a rapier and dagger (or shortsword) TWF style.

Am I really going to be stuck doing the 2 dagger thing all the way through the game? If so, what a gip our small races are getting... there should be more small weapons in the game.

 

I'm not sure why you consider daggers to be so bad. Going dual wield as a rogue will maximize your sneak attack damage, so base weapon damage won't mean much in the long run. Also there is an abundance of magic daggers in the game so it's not like you have to hunt for a decent weapon. I mean, I can think of at least 2 daggers of venom that you can find, as well as tons of daggers +1... Also you can throw daggers, so with quick draw you don't even need a bow most of the time.

I had a halfling rogue/fighter in my recent party, and crafted a +3 flaming icy shocking dagger for him, and he just tore through things like bugbears like they were pinatas.

 

I don't think daggers are bad at all. The thing that is bothering my is the lack of flexibility. If my ideal character concept was a TWF dual dagger wielding halfling rogue (or rouge, as many like to call them) I'd be set like a jet!

Unfortunately, my ideal character concept was a TWF rapier/dagger wielding halfling rogue. Apparently I'll be dual wielding daggers not because it's what I wanted, but because it's apparently the only finesse weapon in the game available to a small character (and the halfling siangham (I've no idea if I'm spell that right) in ToEE is actually just a dagger, so it doesn't count as second option in my book).

So, to clarify, I have no problems with daggers. I'm just stunned that it's my only option from a finesse perspective.

 

Looking at the manual, it seems as if all weapons do even LESS damage when wielded by a "small" racial member - is that true?

i.e. Daggers do 1d3 when used by Halflings, as opposed to 1d4.
Shortswords do 1d4 when used by Halflings, as opposed to 1d6.

Is this right?

If so, then we might as well just use the dagger. Since we're only losing 1 point of damage at best, compared to the shortsword/rapier.

 

Locutus, that only applies when the weapon is scaled down to Small size. Like the halfling siangham. Actually I'm surprised they included the siangham but not the kukri, which is a light weapon even for Small characters (but it needs exotic weapon proficiency as well).

Technically in 3.5 you could scale down a rapier to small size and have a halfling be able to finesse it, but I don't think you can do that in ToEE by modding. I could be wrong though...

However if you think about it, a human-sized dagger is the size of a small sword for a halfling, so it's like you're dual wielding shortswords.

 

use the consule.
make a masterwork weapon of your choice and enchant it.

Sell any weapons you find... interestingly enough, while enchanting many items take quite alot of XP, enchanting weapons is chump change.
something of +6 to stat: 18,000 gold and 1440 XP.
+1 to weapon: 1,000 gold and 40 XP.

As you can see, the XP costs dont match up. If you multiply it out you will see that it costs twice the XP per 1000 gold to enchant wonderous items then it does to enchant weapons. I am certain this is a bug.

 

Infact you can't. And, anyway, it would be useless. Yes, a small rapier would still have a better critical than a dagger, but would always deal only 1d4 of damage, like a dagger.
That's why I hate small races, but consider that, at that point, you just have to point everything on sneak attaks or, when they are useless, use short bows. More, fighting with 2 daggers is not a bad thing, if your DEX is high enough to grant your halfling a decent hit bonus. Spending weapon finesse, focus and improved critical on 2 daggers will grant good results.

 

According to colum 24 in the protos a raiper is size_small, so would that mean that a small creature could use it or would it have to be changed to size_tiny?

 

small just meants alot less damage on melee.

You want a small character, make it into a mage or a ranged attacker.

 

Where's the challenge in that? I've had a lot of fun running through the game with all small characters, it makes it much harder.

 

D&D and TOEE are not just about power gaming.

If you want to have the most powerful party then only play with Humans or maybe the occassional Half-Orc.

In my opinion it is simply more fun to play using the not-so-powerful races as they add challenge and make for a slightly different game experience.

Everyone can do as they like. That is the point. If you think having a halfling is too restrictive then don't have one.

Personally, I think it is fun to have a halfling Paladin or a Half-Orc wizard.

Halflings do get other advantages... extra dexterity, extra to hit with thrown weapons, extra hide, extra AC versus giants, etc...

An entire party of halflings is always fun. Hire some of those big clumsy humans to carry your loot... kind of like talking horses.

- Livonya

 

well. now that i think about it. halflings are also weaker ranged fighters because they are limited to short bows which do less damage.

Ofcourse its not all about power gaming. But if you are roleplaying you have to consider the fact that the characters know their capacities.

How many skinny nerds in here have decided to aim for a career in sports? not many... how many have gone after something more cerebral?

This is the same, the characters don't have to powergame, but they can tell when they are at a disadvantage in a certain field, and are LIKELY not follow it.

 

This is not a bug. This is according to the 3.5 rules. Ultimately, having a bonus to an attribute is more valuable than having a bonus on a weapon.

Think about it. A +1 weapon costs 2,000 gp (1,000gp to make). It grants a +1 to hit and damage with that weapon.

Gauntlets of Ogre Power cost 4,000gp (2,000gp to make) and grant you a +1 to hit and damage to every melee weapon you use. They also increase your carrying capacity and give you a +1 bonus on any Strength-based skill checks (which there are none of in ToEE, granted). They are much more valuable than a +1 on a sword.

 

But if you can do something about it why not change it, a skinny nerd can go to the gym, its a choice they make not to change by doing something more cerebral in stead of doing something like Hypertrophy.

Why couldn't a halfling make and use a raiper, I learned fencing when I was 10, I wouldn't have been much bigger (or smaller) than a halfling and I could use a raiper and I don't think there would be much difference between the damage that I could've delt with it compared to someone bigger, its mostly speed and stabbing thats important, thats why its a finness weapon. It was invented for skinny nerds.

 

I don't think the issue being discussed in this thread is whether or not a rapier should be finessable by a small character. We know from D&D 3.5 rules that small characters can use appropriately sized weapons of any type (e.g. a halfling can finesse a small rapier). I think the debate is centered on the fact that small weapons deal less damage then medium weapons.

I personally would gladly use the 1d4 damage rapier for my halfling rogue.