Party Composition Advice

Well, after numerous computer-related misadventures (Memory Card = Pure Evil), I've decided to take a whack at a run-through of ToEE. The catch is, what to make my party? So far, I have four members, am planning to probably use a total of six PCs, and have no plans to use any NPCs, except maybe Lareth for a while for role-play reasons. The party I have so far, (Note, the alignment of the party will be LE) (Stats are from memory, but are FAIRLY accurate).

Garnak Great-Knife. NE Half-Orc Fighter, Falchion. 20 Str, 18 Con, 16 Dex, 11 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha. Big, mean, uses a falchion. (Keen + IC = 9 point critical range, tasty). This is guy is supposed to me my main warrior. With 18 Con, enough HP to take it, and with 20 str and towards the endgame, absurd criticals, he should be able to dish out. Weapon Spec and Cleave, rather dull featwise. pretty straightforward.

Damian Mourvante. LE Human Fighter2, Rogue8. Dual Short Swords. 18 Dex, 12 Str, 12 Con, 18 Int, 13 Wis, 16 Cha. My main rogue, and the 'leader' of the party. Basically, two fighter levels gives me enough feats to gain imp. Trip, Imp. Feint, and all the weapon focus, finess, two-wep and imp Crit. The Theory, untested so far, is that out of combat he will handle all the talking, and some pick-pocketing and the odd lock or trap. In combat, he trips people, then tears into them with many 4d6 sneak attacks as they get up. haven't tried it, but should be a demon in combat despite being mostly rogue.

Ndonac Gravechant. NE Human Cleric of Erythnul, Morningstar+Shield. 16 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Wis, 13 Int, 11 Cha. My other backup combatant, I'm giving him Imp. Initiative, then working toward spring attack so that he can manuever around to heal people. War and Evil Domains. Basically, all-around support. with a shield and good armor and HP, should tank pretty well, after a buff or two should hit things occasionally, plus loads of heals. I dont plan to ever use Turning. I'll probably toss him CA&A, though this may keep him from ever getting Spring Attack. Not quite sure yet, but the items seem more valuable.

Cynthia Mourvante. LE Human Sorceress. 11 Str, 13 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha. The primary Spell-slinger. Give her Fireball, Magic Missle, Lightning Bolt and Cone of Cold, and let the fur fly. Feat-wise, Improved Initative, a spell-foci in Necromany and probably Evocation, and an item creating feat. (Probably Wondrous, while Ndonac handles the CA&A). I may toss her a crossbow, but I dont plan to waste feats or enchantment on it.



Thats what I have so far. For my two other additions, I'm thinking so about the classes so far:

Wizard. Most likely. more spells are always good, and it'll let me dump more of the item creation feats on to this guy, and let Cynthia concentrate on blasting things.

Barbarian or Fighter. I already have one good dedicated fighter, plus a fighter-rogue and a war-cleric. I honestly don't know if I need another one, especially since so much of ToEE takes place in fairly narrow areas. A reach-weapon would solve that, but I honestly don't know if I need one.

Monk: they're kinda cool, but I always thought that a fighter is better. meh...I highly doubt I'll get a monk.

Druid: For some reason, me and druids don't get along. They always seem to be fifth wheels when I use them, kinda just hanging around being useless, and the Animal Companion, while cool, tends to get in the way and rush and get killed. On the other hand, Call Lightning is an excellent spell, and extra warm, furry bodies help. Im split, but leaning slightly away from this one.

Bard. I have never, ever, used a Bard in my life. They seem like Rogues, but even MORE useless to me. Spells are too slow in getting, sneaking is better for an actual rogue, and if you want to fight, get a half-orc fighter. On the other hand, an all-around support may be what I need, and it would be a learning experience. And give me a reason to get a gnome.

Another Cleric? Maybe, more healing has potential. but I'm not sure I need a second cleric. Honestly don't know.

Paladin. Check the Alignment. No go.

Another Rogue? It was hard enough to convince myself that ONE wouldn't hurt the party's fighting ability. What use a second one would have, I don't honestly know.

Ranger. The other character I'm seriously thinking about. I've never played a ranger, so it could be interesting, with some favored enemies, a few spells, and a bow. I don't know however, just how good he'd be, and I have little experience with archery, other then remembering it takes absurd amounts of arrows.



The Criteria for my selection is three-fold.

One: Must be a strongly-contributing member of the party. Whoever I pick has to pull his or her weight in fights, and not just stand around or be an extra. This is the main argument against a rogue or bard. It'd be nice if they contribute something that isn't already there.

Two: Must be role=playable. Admittedly, I can come up a back-story for anything, but there has to be a reason for this character to be wandering around. this is something I'll handle on my own.

Three: This isn't firm, but I'd like to stay away from humans. I already have three of them, and I really want to add some more variety to my party. I'd like to toss in at least one shorty, either halfling, Gnome, or Dwarf.


Well, I gtg, so I'll wrap this up. Just toss whatever ideas or comments you like, and I'll check back in the morning before I finish up the party.

 

I have found the most success in terms of how well a party of five PCs plays out in the game to include these classes in this type of formation from back to front of the party.

(back of the party)
1 Wizard
1 Cleric
1 Rogue
1 Ranger
1 Barbarian
(front of the party)

Note: I have the Fighter types and Rogue, in that order, engage in weapon melee, first and as possible. I tend to keep the healer of the bunch toward the back of the party, unless immediately needed up front. When needed, he moves forward and attacks of which can be often. Always make a barrier of characters between the monsters and the wizard. Make the monsters take an attack of opportunity for trying to flank around to attack the wizard. Finally, the wizard gets yelled at for even so much as considering engaging in melee combat.

 

4 is all you need; experiment with other party builds next time through.

Rock on! :rock:

 

Sorcerers are more toee friendly, i've noticed. The game encourages knowing a few good spells and spamming them. The wizard feat stuff is nice, but you can get by with having your sorcerer or cleric/druid craft your items, and I haven't found metamagic entirely too useful.

Honestly though, even for first level I would take glitterdust or grease over magic missile. You don't want a spell that does d4. Later on, when you're firing 4-5 the spell is very useful, but disabling stuff trumps flat damage in this game if your party is set up correctly.

Grease, glitterdust, color spray > magic missile, burning hands, fireball.

Which isn't to say that you should never get fireball, but I rarely find the damage spells to be useful the level you qualify for them, and since you have a sorcerer, you're a level behind a true wizard anyways.

A few points - Rogues, while invisible, flanking or benefitting from blindness out-damage fighters, easily. I find it shocking you're even having trouble including one. Two weapons + elemental damage + sneak attack = efficiency.

Reach fighter = Spiked chain. You function at 5 feet and 10 feet. This game allows you to pull off the "bag of rats" move that was nerfed when 3.5 came out. You whirlwind a group, hit the big guy, kill a small guy, greater cleave the big guy, kill a small guy, etc etc. You certainly want dodge, mobility, spring attack, whirlwind, power attack, cleave and greater cleave + the spiked chain proficiency.

Trip is all but useless if you don't have high strength, which your thief wont.

Monks are trash. If you like making amulets of greater fang whatever, then go right ahead.

My most successful party after 4 run throughs, was the following:

1 fighter/X rogue - dual wielding, weapon finesse and whatever else

X/Fighter - Spiked chain, the whirlwind chain and the cleave chain. Clears out mooks, and will achieve the bag of rats move in harder fights.

X/Sorcerer - Debuffer, learning crowd control first and damage later. Some meta magic is useful, if only to place your spells in higher slots so you can overuse the most useful spells. Improved initiative and jacked dex is a must.

X/Cleric - Pure support. Iron will, whatever else you want.

I don't understand using 5-6 party members though, the game gets entirely too easy.

 

Hmm... Interesting points. The reason I'm doing six is largely force of habit, meh. I'll think about cutting it down to four.

The reason I don't use rogues is that the D&D Games I played the most are NWN, Planescape, and Icewind Dale II, in descending order, and in all three, Rogues are usualy a hassle you put up with so that you don't get fricasseed by traps.

As to the trip, sounds like I'm gonna be re-rolling the Rogue. Oh joy... FOUR stats I need to worry about... Worse then the cleric....

As to the fighter, he sounds extremely heavy on the feats, even for a fighter. Whirly and Greater Cleave is seven feats together, plus Exotic Weapon Prof, Focus, and Specialization. I suppose a Human Fighter can pull it off in ten levels, but I think I'll stick to the Falchion.

Four member party..... hmmmmm

 

Ok, here's my 2 coppers....


You need at least 2 decent melee types, a healer (cleric or druid) is a must have, an arcane spellslinger (wizard or sorceror)) and a stealth type (rogue, monk, bard etc.).

To be more exact:

1. Dwarven fighter, emphasis on defense, specialize in the long sword (you get so many gopod longswords compared to other types). If you plan to use Fragarach or Scather, make him CG and use the bastard sword.

2. Half-orc fighter, reach weapon specialist - glaive or ranseur. Try to get enough feats to get the whirlwind attack, with cleave if possible. Combat reflexes is good too - this guy should get a lot of AoO.

3. Human cleric, preferrably of a god with the war sphere so you can get a free martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus. Take a few Craft feats, maybe Power Attack and Cleave if you plan to get into combat a lot. This guys can be a good melee type at higher levels, especially with spells like Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, Divine Power and Righteous Wrath.

4. Human wizard - generalist (choosing a school limits you too much as a tradeoff for the extra spell/level). Take the feats: Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magical Marms and Armor. Maybe Craft Wand too.

5. Eleven bard (a lot of people will say he's useless, but I disagree). nice high DEX, and take those longbow feats (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot). Being an elf he can use a longsword and longbow without needing special feats. There you've got a stealthy spellslinger who is handy with a bow and can inspire the rest of your party, as well as throw around a few healing spells. If you're cleric can craft a wand of cure wounds - BAM - combat medic. Pump up his CHA and Use Magic Device, then you can equip him with neat stufflike a Wand of Fireballs.

 

Allright, I've added an LE Dwarven Wizard to the party for more spell-casting and faster Spell-Level acquisition. I'm trying to find some information on Rangers/Archers and whether or not they are worth it, and then I'll either go it with five or add a ranger and start.

 

If you want to do a lot of the quests, you're going to need a "face man". Someone in the party with a decent Charisma and max ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive. Rogues work well for this. As do Bards with a level or two of Fighter or Rogue.

An archer Bard is actually pretty good to have. Their Inspire Courage keeps running until you cast a spell, use a different bardic music ability, go to the World Map or rest. So fire it up as soon as you hit the dungeon and you've got +1 to hit and damage on all party members until you're ready to go back to rest. Since you get extra uses every level, you can even start casting spells and then re-up the Inspire Courage when you're done. And with bows you don't have to worry about having a really good strength or the fact that bard has lousy HP and AC.

I'd go Half-Elven or Human Bard (Half-Elves get bonuses to Diplomacy and Gather Info, Humans get an extra feat and extra skill points.) Max out the social skills and Perform (which is needed for Bardic Music). If you have points left over take Tumble and Use Magic Device. Take Point Blank Shot as your feat. (If Human, take Precise Shot as well.)

At 2nd level take Fighter and dump all your skill points into maxing out Intimidate. The level of Fighter will give you a bonus feat (take Precise Shot, if Half-Elf or Rapid Shot, if Human) and proficiency in all martial weapons, which will let you use a long bow once you find one.

At 3rd level go back to Bard and take Rapid Shot as your third-level feat if you don't already have it. Stick with Bard the rest of the way, barring a possible stop for a 2nd Fighter level if you feel your Intimidate score is lagging behind and to pick up another bonus feat.

 

Well hey man, it's your call. I'm just offering borderline aggresive advice.

Trip is useful, don't get me wrong, but it's more hassle than it's worth, I think. You'd be better off pumping 4 attacks into the poor monster's back.

Oh, extremely. It's really not so bad though. Fighter specialization is basically a dead feat sink, in my opinion. The +1 is godly early on, but later you start to encounter diminishing returns when you need to be knee deep in the feat chain to get something as lame as +2 damage. The game is uncapped anyways, so you should be adventuring well into the mid teens.

You're going to have a million feats anyways, so why not start a bunch of chains? :giggle:

I agree though, it's feat intensive. But when I played my fighter I figured I would go all the way.

Thurbane and Kalshane have good ideas too. I personally made a dwarf barbarian a few games ago, 20 constitution and one level of fighter for the armor proficiency. He walked around in full plate mail with a huge pool of hit points. Not all barbarians have to be fast

 

I've had success with taking a dwarf, going barbarian first for the max amount of HPs at 1st level and the rage 1/day, then fighter, then barbarian, then fighter for 3 more levels, specializing in the great axe (that +2 to damage for every single hit is nothing sneeze at and there's precious few oppurtunities to do whirlwind attack in ToEE, and by the time you're high enough level to get WWA, Great Cleave tends to do the job just as well.) before going back into barbarian for the rest of the way. Basically it looks like:

Lv1: Barbarian, Power Attack (immediately drop 1 point into Power Attack. For -1 to hit you get +2 to damage. WF at 3rd level gets you a net of -0)
Lv2: Fighter, Cleave
Lv3: Barbarian, WF: Great axe
Lv4: Fighter, Great Cleave (you need to get your 2nd level of fighter at 4th level so you can have the +4 BAB required for Great Cleave and a bonus feat to buy it with.)
Lv5: Fighter
Lv6: Fighter, Weap Spec: Great Axe, whatever other feat he can qualify for. If he's got a good Dex, Combat Reflexes is a good one, as the ToEE AI loves to draw AOOs, which can easily feed into a cleave-fest.
Lv7+ Barbarian

I equip him in a Breastplate or mithral full plate (consoled in Co8 5.0, but hopefully will available through one of the shops soon enough.) so he still gets a full 30' of movement.

+4 to damage from the combo of Power Attack and Weapon Spec also increases your chances of dropping a baddie and getting another cleave in.

 

I don't know about you guys but I think Monks can be the grease

My 1st party combo made for roleplay that has kicked butt has been;

M Half-Elf Paladin Leader/Conversation Skills - Scythe Feats (Keen, Focus), Better Turning, Blind Fight (to combo with fog cloud to fight while they can't, with cloud stops gaze attacks (death gaze, petrification gaze).
Meleer

M Human Monk Second-In-Command - Blind Fight for same, Dodge, Weapon Finesse (yes, your bare hands count, all into Dexterity and Wisdom means HUGE AC, sure bit less damage but great for this role that has lots into tumble and moves freely), Quick Draw (need a special weapon sometimes but want it off for Deflect Arrows to work without wasting turns eh?)
Meleer/Sneak Attack Stunner/Running around whereever needed in combat disabling/stunning mages and the like. Listener

F Gnome Wizard Crafter/Teacher/Nuker (Arms, Wondorous), Greater Spell Penetration - Knows practically every spell of arcane type by scribing other wizards' spells and scribes her own for them to learn. Appraiser.

F Elf Druid - Archer/Healer/Nuker who can switch to melee if NEED be, Combat Casting (for Defensive Cast Healing etc), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Natural Spell (kinda a waste I realize since I wear Heavy Armor (Troll, yep I know A HEAVY ARMOR DRUID WTF!! what can I say, I'm unique ) at latter half of game making Wild Shape not very useful except for regen) Btw, Darkwood Buckler can be used by Druid's and made to +4 AC

M Halfling Rogue 1/Bard 9 - Sneak Attack Archer/Healer/Charmer/Buffer (tho can melee sneak attack), Crossbow, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (many attacks), Combat Reflexs (kinda waste unless in melee mode...). Trap Disarm, Lock Open, Sneaking, Pickpocket (very rare use tho since no good spy missions to justify for Lawful Good party except Mona's orb)

Bertram Warrior 8, Barbarian 2 - My Paladin's love, Great tank once he levels. Blindfight (you know, yes I like Fog Cloud, bite me, I like it when I can hit ppl and noone can hit me), Bastard Sword Exotic, Focus and Specialization (uber damage, uber defense with Shield to counter Barbarian Rage), Diehard (he rocks!), Great Fortitude (for Diehard), Improved Initiative,

Spugnoir - Wizard/Archer/Debuffs/Spells that need delicate positioning. I leech spells of off by scribing for my main wizard and vice versa. Test Summoner, stays basic invisiblity, esp of ring, isn't cancelled by summoning stuff hehehehe. Buffer 1st, Damage 2nd (leave that to my main pentrating mage). - Augment Summoning, Extend Spell (summons/buffs/debuffs. Haste, Stinking Cloud maybe), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Spell Focus (Conjuration).

Elmo - Stealthy Ranger/Warrior, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (5 attacks with haste out of sneak can ruin anyone's day) (one two weapon taken as Fighter since he'll never get second with only 5 ranger lvs) Cleave hehe, Quick Draw (changes which two weapons depending on foe) Improved Initiative.

I try to put every goodly NPC on party and since most melee my party has PC ranged type else would never get close (or when everyone melees I must have some carry polearms), had Furnok early, bought all spells from Burne then put him on party and leeched more spells by scribing and his levelin, Had Rufus melee, Otis range (surprising good), only person always on is Berty Elmo most of time, but he starts off higher level so needs to take a break at some point to chill for bit, can't show up my mains lol.

My only regret is no good Cleric NPCs to craft Holy onto my Paladin Scythe . I have to settle for Scythe of Shocking Justice and Ransuar of Righteousness instead..

Tell me I got tactics
Would like to hear others tactics/roleplay parties too!

 

throw in another tank or a wizard, really you've allready covered all your bases so it doesn't matter what you throw in now

 

Have to agree, sounds like you Bard/Archer would be best as a face and the song buffs helps tremendously (1st song starts at +1, goes to +2) and songs don't wear off immediately upon not singing (and you can sing and fight at same time) the effect lasts a bit even after you stop. Aside from buffing they make good charmers and extra healers and some debuffing/disabling, tho wizards are great for that esp Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, etc.

Or just another Wizard as you say for more spells but you can use NPCS in game for that, you can scribe scroll with them and share spells.

Druid would be great debuffer too, I love Spike Stones cast ahead and the like but you have to plan ahead when doing that and leave your animals far behind in formation order or lil back manually so they don't rush in. Make her/him an archer with your set (everyone should carry a emergency range weapon esp for Entangle). I have a heavy armor archer druid that rocks but only Troll armor can you do that with and it does hurt Dexterity skills if you're using them (not archery tho).

Once destroyed with Druid and two Sorcerers, Druid would Entangle and Sorcerers blast away. Great fun

 

Moralgay - I dig your style. That is one massive party though, 8 guys?! :grin:

I'm about to start temple over with a very large party of very bad classes (Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Bard + some more) [don't argue with me, monks are bad ] and I would like some advice. How would you set up a bard, for example? I have the jaunty hat penned in and a musical instrument, but then what - Two rapiers for flavor? And the monk? I played one before but I didn't have a druid to craft the amulets needed to work. Perhaps I should look into multiclassing into something that will give me fist buffs? I also have no clue how to construct a ranger - green cape +bow feats?

Asides from the paladin who will look the other way while I raise undead (Neutral good party designation, true neutral cleric of nerull) , I was going to have a necromancer/cleric of nerull multiclass and without a mystic theurge prestige class, I have no idea to work this into something slightly functional.

These don't have to be functional suggestions, mind you - i'm all about stuff that will be funny to watch and role play.

The bit about having a summoning sorcerer with the ring of invisibility is very nice though. I hadn't thought about that.

 

Thanks ShadowDeth, much appreciated! (Yeah, massive, not mentioning the two animals and all those countless summons, so much so that some range/long weapons aren't nice, they're needed... else half the party would just be backseat drivers lol)
Its fun to always outnumber your opponents.

Two rapiers sound fun But seriously, take a good look at who you want to be upfront considering the narrowness of many areas and if the bard isn't going to be one of them (he can) then consider crossbow or bow (and if really going for it precise shot for acc and rapid reload if using crossbow for multiple attacks later). As for melee for bard depends again on what you plan for your ranger as they can uber duel wield for free or very many arrow archery... the only problem with archery that uses Manyshot/Rapid Shot, as the ranger does, is that the Rapid makes ALL your arrows/bolts get a -2 to hit and Manyshot -4 to -8 as you increase your basic attack bonus via levels, dexterity and feats. I really value accuracy in ToEE so while it does work well on some foes I prefer a non-ranger archer with precise shot, point blank shot and if really focusing on it vs other ablities, weapon focus etc. Two weapon fighting from Ranger doesn't have such a problem (it lowers the penalty instead and later adds -5 to an additional attack but not ALL attacks just that one). Just keep in mind they have to be using Light armor (no weight restriction however), I recommend Elven Chain, and no shield means other ways of defense such as Dexterity, Rings, Shield Necklace or Magic Buckler (but may make your primary get -1). You can use Strength and use Medium/Light or Medium/Medium weapons for great damage and accuracy tho need good roll or points may be lacking (Rangers need STR, DEX, WIS and CON helps as they only get d8) or to make up for that use Weapon Finesse and just Dexterity but be warned, Light weapons only which means less damage and even less due to no damage bonus, just normal STR bonus being light. Also if you wear a normal buckler then add the additional negative base attack armor check that this feat causes for any shield to the -1 (-2 for normal buckler). This leaves only Shield Necklace for shield bonus to AC but that will be expensive to keep crafting and burning out. Either way is fine, but realize it's not as straightforward or beneficial as it may seem, medium/light weapon may just be best, same goes for Bard, or if still feeling need to melee and don't like either then just have STR Bard single wield and Shield, maybe improved feigning without losing attacks and making foe Flatfooted (grease works too, esp on Orges/Giants) or Longspear for some fun range and tons of attacks of opportunity with Combat Reflexes. Funny enough bards don't need DEX as much as Rangers as they can wear Medium without losing feats.

My Paladin looks the other way too when I Animate Dead and eventually create an army after a few days of Animating each enemy hehehe. Too bad his turning will destroy them as well so I don't use it that much, but was fun to watch.

As for Bards spells your options are mainly in Charming, Healing, Disabling (and buffs/debuffs with some damage too) depending on what you need more. I like to have spells unique to them too, Good Hope is concentrate only but out of battle can help lockingpicking/disabling traps/pickpocketing or stacked with Inspire Competence (sing first, lasts 10 seconds or so after break conc.) help others appraise etc. Their Charm spells are lower than a mage gets but also means lower DC unless heightened. I recommend Cloak of Charisma.

Monks are cool! :chairshot
+7 class base to ALL Saving Throws, not to mention the feats, is just unique! And the stun fist is a complete and easy mage killer, esp when done from sneak or with your tumble moblity.

I don't recommend multiclassing a monk for Greater Magic Fang buffs tho, the amulet or Druid is enough, maybe for Sneak attack tho, and you may be a weapon monk, hand monk or both or catching and throwing stuff monk with Quick Draw (also Flurry applies to Shurikens). Weapon Finesse is great for fist and all melee weapons they have except Quarterstaff where STR would serve you better. Just be sure to pump up their DEX first, WIS 2nd, STR 3rd, CON 4th (they get their bonus feats anyway without INT and have 4 pts a lv, but just my opinion unless want Combat Expertise, and can self-heal). They benefit the most from Enlarge Person getting damage and improving their already improved tripping to register as a Very Large/Huge Creature, slight acc loss and 1 AC loss but that should not be a problem at all as you can easily be the highest AC person in the party as a Monk esp with Gloves of Dexterity, Amulet of Wisdom, Ring and Bracers of Armor, even Shield Broach just to cast and put back on WIS amulet and Dodge feat (+8/+9 Base, +3 from glove, +3 from amulet, +2 Ring/Deflect, +5 Armor, +4 Broach for WHOPPING 36 AC :rock: ) Tell me Monks are *beemp* now bitches! Rawhawwhawwhawww. Opps.. Got carried away . Uber Tanks and Magic Resistant like hell. (btw, 35-36 AC Enlarged, 37-38 AC Reduced 2 more acc, 1 less dam, add haste for further nice +1 AC +1 Acc. 39 AC OMG :jerkin: )