Of weapons and bandits....(rant time)

Ok,

I must say, I take my hat off to the mods on the board. I've been testing the new 5.0.0 Beta, and its definitely something. Definitely a meatier set of encounters at the Moathouse. However, in my own annoying way, I'm wondering if maybe there can be a way to modify the bandits to be like their original counterparts.

What I mean, is, can there be a way to give them the gear they are carrying in the module? No offense, but there is not much likelihood in a group of bandits all having swords, as they were incredibly expensive. Which brings me around to a second problem and the lack of a spear/shield combination, something is not only patently unD&D, but also totally wrong! Yes, I know D&D 3.0/3.5 have the Spear as a 2-handed weapon. Thats totally bogus, and I've said so more than once at the Official D&D Forums. There is plenty of historical evidence to support the idea that warriors throughout history were usually armed with nothing more than a large shield, spear and longknife/dagger. I would point anyone that doubts this to The Bayeux Tapestry online. The panels to study are 4, 6 - 12, 19, 21, 25 - 34 that show both Infantry and Cavalry formations in both the Norman and Anglo-Saxon armies with spears used as melee weapons in conjunction with shields.

So, can someone help me (show me maybe?) if there is a way to

1.) Modify the Moathouse Bandits to make them equivalent (relatively speaking) to their module counterparts? This includes weaponry, having them all attack the PCs on the parade field (since the interior room is too small to do so), the Captain to be a 2nd Lvl Fighter with proper feats, Aide to be a 1st lvl Fighter with proper feats and the rest as Warriors (which they basically are now with 8hp) and proper gear/treasure?

2.) Modify the Spear so as to allow it to be wielded one-handed when holding a shield. This would allow for spear wielding warriors/fighters to have the benefit of their improved AC.

Edit: Just to be me, I decided I would add some supporting information, from the thread I authored at the ofificial boards a while back (got me banned cause I can't hold my tongue when someone basically implies Im stupid).

Just as an aside, its interesting that EVERY single version of D&D (that I know of) has had artwork depicting warriors or the like wielding spears while using shields. These have been in base books as well as adventures/supplements. To the best of my knowledge, this is the list of such artwork I have found thus far....

D&D Supplement II: Blackmoor (published 1975)
- Page 33: Mounted female warrior on unicorn bearing a spear in her right hand a round shield in her left (I believe its a Dave Sutherland illo)

Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set (3rd version, published 1980)
- Cover by Erol Otus shows a spear wielding fighter with a round wooden shield about to skewer a dragon

B2: Keep on the Borderlands (published 1980)
- Cover by Jim Roslof shows spear wielding Orcs with orc shields as well as a spear wielding PC with a kite shield.

X2: Castle Amber (published 1981)
- Cover by Erol Otus shows a spear wielding guard with round shield running along parapet as it crumbles.

U2: Danger at Dunwater (published 1982)
- Page 26: Male warrior with spear in right hand and round shield in left hand. (Timothy Truman illo)
- Page 27: Male warrior with spear in left hand and round shield in right hand. (Timothy Truman illo)

N1: Cult of the Reptile God (published 1982)
- Page 4: Male warrior with spear in right hand and kite shield in left hand resting lower edge on ground. (appears to be Keith Parkinson illo)

A2: Secret of the Slaver's Stockade (published 1981)
- Page 24: Male warrior with spear in right hand and round shield in left hand. (Erol Otus illo)

UK 1: Beyond the Crystal Cave (published in 1983)
- Page 24: Male warrior with spear in right hand and round shield in left hand. (Timothy Truman illo)

D1-2: Descent into the Depths of the Earth (published 1981)
- Page 3: Male warrior with spear in right hand and kite shield in left hand. (David C. Sutherland III illo)
- Page 27: Kuo-Toa warrior with ovoid shield in left hand and spear in the right. (David C. Sutherland III illo)

WG3/S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (published 1982)
- Cover by Erol Otus shows male warrior with round shield in his left hand and right overhand position spear.
- Page 10 of the Monsters and Magical Items supplement for WG3/S4 shows Male(?) Derro with spear-like weapon and round spiked shield. (Jeff Easley illo?)
- Page 19 of the Monsters and Magical Items supplement shows a hobgoblin with a square Legionnaire-style shield and a spear. (Jeff Easley illo?)

EX1: Dungeonland (published in 1983)
- Page 3: Male warrior with spear in right hand and round shield in left hand. (Timothy Truman illo)
- Page 4/5: Male warrior with spear in left hand and round shield in right hand. (Timothy Truman illo)
- Page 13: Bullywug warrior with spear in right hand and round shield in left hand. (Timothy Truman illo)

WG7: Castle Greyhawk <Joke Version> (published 1988)
- Page 58: PCs in a Shield-Wall formation with kite shields and spears in the 2nd rank. (Jeff Easley illo)

Dungeon Masters Adventure Log (published 1980)
- Cover by Erol Otus shows Gnoll Warrior with round shield and spear facing off against a male warrior with a spear and shield.

The Rogues Gallery (published 1980)
- Page 43 entry on Lawrence Schick's Elven Fighter/Mage character Lanolin (who is being pickpocketed by Greg Fleming's halfling thief Gormadoc) depicts him with a round shield and a boar spear. (Greg K. Fleming illo)

Deities and Demigods (1st Printing, published 1980)
- Page 65: Entry on Greek God of War Ares depicts him wielding a spear and carrying a shield. (illo by Jim Roslof)
- Page 65: Entry on Greek Goddess of Wisdom and Combat Athena depicts her with a spear and shield. (illo by Jim Roslof)

Monster Manual (1st printing, published 1977)
- Page 1: Mounted warrior skewering a Bullete with spear while bearing a kite shield. (David C. Sutherland III illo?)
- Page 46: Gnoll warrior with ovoid shield and spear (David C. Sutherland III illo)
- Page 58: Kobold warrior with square shield and spear (David C. Sutherland III illo)
- Page 76: Orc warriors with orc shields and spears (David C. Sutherland III illo)

Fiend Folio (1st printing, published 1981)
- Page 111: Winter outfitted warrior bearing a spear and round shield. (Jim Roslof illo)

Monster Manual II (1st printing, published 1983)
- Page 69: Entry on Verbeeg Giants shows one with a kite shield and wielding a spear. (illo by Harry Quinn?)

Wilderness Survival Guide (1st printing, published 1986)
- Page 49: Illustration by Larry Elmore of mounted flying warrior with round shield and spear.
- Page 75: Illustration by Jeff Easley shows orc wielding spear and bearing a teardrop shaped shield.

Greyhawk Adventures (1st printing, published 1988)
- Page 37: Illustration showing guard with kite shield bearing the device of the Wild Coast Town of Fax and a spear. (Jeffy Easley illo)

Players Handbook 2nd Edition (published 1989)
- Page 92: Colour illustration showing goblin warrior with round shield and spear. (Unknown artist)

Players Option: Skills and Powers (published 1995)
- Page 108: Illustration by Eric Hotz showing goblin(?) warrior with spear and round shield.

AD&D Historical Reference<HR3>: Charlemagne's Paladins (published 1992)
- Page 3: Illustration by Richard Garner showing Carolingian warriors with spears and round shields
- Page 13: Illustratin by Richard Garner showing mounted Carolingian warriors with spear and shield facing off against Saxon warriors with spears and round shields
- Page 17: Illustration by unkown artist showing Carolingian warriors laying siege to a town. Warriors are mounted and bearing shields and spears.
- Page 21: Illustration by Richard Garner showing mounted Carolingian warrior with spear and shield.
- Page 61: Illustration by Richard Garner of the Battle of Roncesvalles Pass depicting Roland and Bishop Turpin at the end holding out against Basque warriors, some of whom have spear and shield.

AD&D Historical Reference<HR 2>: The Celts (published 1992)
- Page 4: Illustration by Richard Raup showing a Celt warrior on horseback bearing a spear and a round shield.
- Page 14: Illustration by Richard Raup showing Celt warriors facing off against one another. Some have spears and shields.
- Page 40: Illustration by Richard Raup showing Celt warriors facing off against Formorians. One warrior has a spear and a round shield.
- Page 74: Illustration by Richard Raup showing Celt warriors, one being a warrior woman bearing a Roman Standard minus the flag, some of whom have spears and shields. One of these is also a warrior woman.
- Page 82: Illustration by Richard Raup showing Celt warriors facing off against Roman Legionnaires. Almost all have spears and shields.

Hacklopedia of Beasts Vol. I: Aarikians to Cats, Great (published 2001 by Kenzer Co. under license from WotC)
- Page 78: Illustration by Brad McDevitt showing a Bison'vyder warrior with a spear in his right hand and a large teardrop shaped shield in his left.

Hacklopedia of Beasts Vol II: Cats, Small to Efreeti (published 2001 by Kenzer Co. under license from WotC)
- Page 78: Illustration by unkown artist depicting a warrior with a spear in his left hand and a shield in his right facing off against a Black Dragon that decided to grab the warrior's horse.

D&D 3.5: The Miniatures Handbook (published 2003)
- Page 12: Colour illustration by Des Hanley showing warriors with spears and large wooden shields standing behind a Marshall.

Castles & Crusades RPG (published 2004 by Troll Lord Games under the Open Gaming License by WotC)
- Page 3: Illustration by Peter Bradley showing more than one Dwarf Warrior wielding a spear and shield to skewer an approaching horde of Orcs (I think) lead by an Orge (I think).

All I propose is this:

Spear
Simple Weapon
Cost: 2gp Weight:6lbs
1-handed melee weapon
1d6/1d8 Piercing (x3 Crit)
No range increment (cannot be effectively thrown), no reach ability (its only circa 7ft in length)
Can be set against charge for x2 damage

That is the basic weapon of every Commoner and Warrior in D&D as I see it. Not everyone can afford a sword and a hauberk of mail. Even those who can afford such will still fight with it.

 

Keo there is alrdy a spear like this in the game.

as long have Co8 installed its all there

its called shortspear

there are noraml and masterwork versions of it and it can be thrown and weilded with any shield

as per the rules.

shift +~ to bring up console then

give 4116 or give 4183 for masterwork version

try it!

 

No, the Shortspear is a throwing weapon. Its roughly the same length as the Javelin, which is under 5ft in length. As such, it is at best an improvised melee weapon.

The Spear, on the otherhand, is a melee weapon and is circa 8ft in length.

As I stated in my opening post, the rules for the Spear are broken. I see no reason to deny not only historical evidence that proves the rules are broken, but also officially produced artwork and previous editions of D&D/AD&D. The current ruleset for Castles & Crusades (where I pointed out this very problem) no longer lists the Spear as a 2-handed weapon.

Its quite simple.

1-handed thrown: Shortspear & Javelin (thrown effectively, improvised melee, no reach)

1-handed melee: Spear (cannot be thrown effectively, no reach)

2-handed melee: Longspear (cannot be thrown effectively, 10ft reach).

Edit: Pic from the D&D 3.5 Miniatures Handbook

 

I'm afraid my copy of 3.5 rules does not speak of such sizes. It just say "A shortspear is small enough to wield one-handed. It may also be thrown." So, if you feel that a 2.5 m spear may be wielded one handed (and I agree that there are *lots* of historical references for that - and not too historical too: ask a Masai!), it falls under the profile of the shortspear, without too much need of headaches. And it speaks nothing about it not being apt for melee combat: there's the javelin category for that.
As noted in other threads and in countless forums around the net (and countless gamers debats face to face) D&D rules do not pretend to be a realistic combat simulation. Sometimes they try, but they usually fail.
So, in order not to lose your sleep on such matters, I think you have to approach the whole weapons matter thinking that the name these weapons are called in real world does not necesarily overlap with the name of the profile they use in the game. You may want to check the discussion I and others (most notably Lord Spike) just had about whether cutlasses should be considered under the Rapier weapon category or the Scimitar weapon category (and, please, you are asked not to re-open it).

 

What you're talking about is a lot of work for little to no benefit to how the game actually plays. The bandits as currently in the game are a good, balanced encounter for parties of the level that are going through the moathouse. As for swords being expensive, I agree, but that's why the bandits have rusty ones. It works for me.

This is a House Rule. Co8 traditionally does not incorporate House Rules into ToEE as there are a vast number of people who play this game, and everyone has different House rules. In addition, a modification like this would require a temple.dll hack, which is beyond the capabilities of the current modding team.

Yes it does, which is the main reason why spears are two-handed weapons. If you've got a 1-handed weapon that does 1d8 damage and can be set to recieve charge, that makes it better than a long sword or an axe. It's a game balance issue.

 

But thats thing thing. It DOESN"T break the rules and is balanced vs the Longspear and the Shortspear because it doesn't have a range increment (cannot be reliably thrown) and does not have Reach. It does the same BASE damage as the Longspear, which represents the fact its wielded melee instead of thrown but does less OVERALL damage because its NOT supposed to be used 2-handed (doesn't get the Str. x1.5 bonus). The reason the Spear still can be set to recieve a charge because its designed that way and the fact most horses, unless specifically fitted with blinders, will NOT run themselves on to sharp pointed poles (I know this from PERSONAL experience in Civil War Reenacting).

Whats more, there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to show the SPEAR wielded in conjunction with a shield. Add to that the fact we have visual evidence on the Bayeux Tapestry of shield bearing spearmen, AND the fact that the Spear I proposed in my initial post is BALANCED, I fail to see WHY this is a problem. This is one of the things that royally yoinks me off about D&D 3.5 in general. The picture in this post is a SHORTSPEAR, NOT the Spear.

Osprey Publishing Anglo-Saxon Thegn AD 449-1066 by Mark Harrison

Edit: Bolding mine. And here is a pic of the Shortspear.

 

can easyly make a copy of shortspear protos and mod it with the longspear model i guess, to test it out...seems to me you just want a purely astetic option of a longer short spear

actualy various ways of doing this by increasing size etc as well ill see

ill try it.

 

Where are you getting your reference for this? Any non-light weapon when wielded in two hands gains 1.5 Strength bonus to damage. Which includes the spear.

The D&D spear does X3 on a critical, can be set to recieve charge, can be thrown with a 20' range increment and is a simple weapon. It's already pretty powerful. If you make it one-handed on top of it, it would be better than any martial weapon. Compared to a warhammer, battleaxe or longsword, it'd be a no brainer which is better.

The concern isn't historical accuracy (we're talking about D&D here) it's game-balance and adherence to the D&D 3.5 rules. What you're proposing is a house rule and unbalanced from a rules perspective.

 

oky i got the spear working like a one handed weap easy

just by changing the size property to medium, it inherits the short spear animation and is held the same way as short spear in hand rather than on shoulder.... other than that it works perfectly .. with shields and throwen even.

just looks a little odd when he spins it in his hand sometimes as per the static animation..

so for just looks it works oky and could be a balanced alternate to the longsword in this current form.

for balance sakes 1d8 d20 crit x2 thrown range 20

test over


if there is any support for this ill make it up and i can be added as another spear version to game.

 

I love it when people DONT pay attention to what I write. Again, for those who missed it the FIRST time....

Spear
Simple Weapon
Cost: 2gp Weight:6lbs
1-handed melee weapon
1d6/1d8 Piercing (x3 Crit)
No range increment (cannot be effectively thrown), no reach ability (its only circa 7ft in length)
Can be set against charge for x2 damage

THAT is a balanced weapon, especially against the Morningstar and Warhammer, as its a PIERCING weapon, because creatures with Damage Reduction/Bludgeoning are basically unaffected by Piercing weapons, which includes the ubiquitous Skeleton.

The reason it has a x3 Critical multiplier is because its a polearm. You're wielding what is essentially an oversized skewer.

It has the x2 'set against charge' because, as I pointed out, horses don't like throwing themselves on pointed objects. You have to brace the weapon to set against a charge, but that does not mean the weapon is incapable of being wielded one-handed.

Whats more, this is SUPPOSED to be THE weapon of all commoners, warriors, bandits and even most fighters throughout the world. Thats why its a Simple Weapon (unlike a sword, it doesn't take training to wield properly and effectively).

I fail to see what the problem is, other than people refusing to see WotC goofed with this weapon.

 

Forgive me for missing a small bit of text in a gi-frickin-normous post that including a long list of references.

You're just as bad off using a longsword or a battleaxe against a skeleton as a spear.

I will give you that there's nothing that really has DR/Piercing though.

But the morningstar is what you should be balancing against, as it's another simple weapon. The warhammer is a martial weapon and by its nature should be better.

With the set vs. charge it still feels too good to be a simple weapon, piercing damage or no. You've got a simple weapon that does the damage and critical of a martial weapon, plus does something extra on top of it. Yeah, the piercing factor kind of sucks, so I'd call it a balanced martial weapon rather than a simple one. And don't asscap me about spears being simple by nature. I know this. I'm just looking at it from a balance perspective.

That said, this is still a moot point as we're still discussing a House rule.