Of spells and scribing and scrolls and sales

Okay, maybe it overdid it with the alliteration in the title, but I was amused. :grin: In any event, on with the post....

Upon recently leveling, I gave my druid/wizard the craft wondrous item feat, intending to make the standard set of stat enhancing gear for the party with my next several thousand xps. Foolishly, I had forgotten that druids do not get Fox's Cunning with their level 2 spells, and I hadn't remembered to learn it as a mage spell.

I remembered that some time ago, I had installed a mod that allowed Burne's apprentice to sell all the arcane scrolls in the game. Of course, that was several installs and at least one hard drive ago, so I went looking, and found the mod here: Arcane Spell Merchant Mod

With a little judicious cutting and pasting, and a bit of modification, I was able to get the mod to work with ToEEFE Ted's 1.2. I discovered a few problems.

(1) Bear's endurance wasn't sold. This was an easy fix. I was already editing 00262burne_apprentice.dlg, so I just added the spell in.

(2) Owl's wisdom, as per protos.tab, is not a copyable scroll. I was also able to fix this problem. The scroll is item 9662, and the type of spell listed in column 312 is 'Owls Wisdom' class_cleric 2. This needed to be changed to 'Owls Wisdom' class_sorcerer 2. Notice the misspelling of sorceror. It is intentional, matching the remainder of the file. However, considering item number 9665, the scroll of greater heroism, in which sorceror is spelled correctly, the misspelling may not be required.

If I may be so bold as to suggest to the modding community, number (2), at least, is a simple fix and should problably be added. Well, normally scribed wizard scrolls don't seem to cause a problem, so presumably the field in column 312 is set in-game when a PC scribes a scroll. But a consoled-in scroll, or one added to treasure, would not work properly

I'd also like to open a discussion regarding the mod I used, which allows the purchase of all arcane spells within the framework of the game. I'm not familiar with deekayex, the apparent creator of the mod, and I do not frequent the Atari forum, so I have not made any attempt to contact him. However, is this mod something that could or should be added to an upcoming Co8 release?

It could be argued that allowing access to all the spells in the game via purchase is cheating. I disagree. In a pen-and-paper format, if a player were seeking a certain spell, he or she would ask the DM if it were available, and at the DM's discretion, it might or might not be. Perhaps it would be found as part of treasure in an upcoming adventure. Perhaps it might be available at the local mages guild. Perhaps it might be used as an adventure hook, and the group might go on a quest looking for the scroll. Or perhaps it might not be available at all. In each of these cases, it would be at the DM's discretion. In ToEE, there is no DM to make that decision. It my humble opinion, allowing an option to gain the scroll would improve the enjoyment of ToEE.

As it stands, there are methods within the game of getting scrolls. In addition to the spells gained at level-up, there is treasure to be found. Furthermore, for the fireball scroll, there is Burne's little riddle game. These are, in my opinion, legitimate ways of getting scrolls, but they never seem to be enough for my parties. There are also less legitimate methods. Getting Burne or Spugnoir to join just to scribe scrolls and then ditching them is pretty cheap. Carrying an extra wizard PC or two for the same purpose bogs down the party. Using suggestion on some of the powerful mages in the game (Falrinth, for example), and having them scribe for you is going well beyond the bounds of fair play. I feel that this mod offers an alternative, with a reasonable price in gold, that, at least to me, seems more within the spirit of D&D than these less savory methods.

Furthermore, we already have a precedent for adding a variety of items for sale that were not intended by the game's creators. The "masterwork items" dialogue with Brother Smyth allows the PC to purchase virtually any item for crafting that the player may wish to customize thier characters with. Granted, with Livonya's mod, this requires a rather hefty quest, but with judicious application of entangle, and some ranged weapons, even a first level party can have access to these items. And most parties would have cleared Emridy Meadows before doing the moathouse even without this quest. Perhaps access to these scrolls should also require a quest? Perhaps clearing the moathouse, or entering the Temple itself, should be a prerequisite? Not having looked too closely at the scripting system, I'm not sure how feasible this is, but it's an idea.

So I place this out on the floor for discussion. I realize that I am no modder, and my opinions may be of little weight, but what do you think?

 

1. so am I different in doing the moathouse before the meadows?
2. I think ted might have some one on in mind which might sell a whole lot of scrolls.
3. I've got no problems with buying scrolls idea, maybe quests for it - bring me a cold beer and my thinking hat.

 

Okay. Feedback seems positive on this. I have today off work, and nothing really better to do, so I'll see if I can track down the original author of the mod to get permission to modify it. The patched dialogue file that I have isn't pretty, and I think that I should standardize the pricing scheme a bit, but if I can get this looking good and running smoothly, I'll post it. Worst case scenario that I can see is that I won't have it done before the weekend. Wish me luck!

 

Good Luck

 

Seems like an appropriate thing to do. If they don't sell 'em in Hommlett, there is always Dyvers, and Greyhawk itself isn't too far away.

Ted, as for 'no magic shop in the Keep', there were always caravans passing to and fro on the frontier...stopping for safety, etc. There was always a chance they would have some magic stuff to sell, and they were always willing to buy stuff...'cause being in a caravan is dangerous work!

 

Okay, I have a working 1.0 version ready. As of yet, I have not gotten permission from DeeKayEx to change and release an altered version of his mod. If I am asked to remove this, I will certainly do so immediately.

As I said, this is a working version, but there are still some changes to be made. Before I make any sweeping changes, I'd like some opionions from the community.

(1) Prices are currently set rather arbitrarily. I'd like to standardize the pricing scheme. Should the scrolls be priced according to the SRD, or according to protos.tab? Pricing to the SRD seems more fair to me, but since some of the protos.tab prices are a little strange, this may allow the player to turn a profit by buying some of the scrolls and re-selling them to other merchants.

(2) What levels of spells should be sold? It seems rather silly to me to have cantrips available, so I'm considering removing the level 0 spells. Also, the game designers only intended the player to reach level 10, which would only allow level 5 spells maximum. Granted, with the current mods available, the level 10 cap is no longer valid, but my gut reaction is to make all level 1-5 arcane scrolls available.

(3) This mod makes the Burne riddle game for the fireball scroll somewhat redundant. May I have permission from whomever wrote that quest to alternatively tie the potential sales of scrolls in there?

 

As long as the scrolls are too expensive to buy at the beggining of the game i think it's a greta idea.

:doublethu

 

I have to be the disenter here. I feel that making all arcane spells available as scrolls is a bad idea. It removes most of the importance of careful spell sellection during levelup, and makes wizards even more powerful than they already are. You might argue that wizards can still only memorize a certain number of spells per level, but through scribing they can have every spell of every level available to them at all times. Spells should be earned, not bought like a weapon.

 

Can something like a probability as a percent chance be set to determine if each spell is available? Can that be done and would that be a good idea, instead of just always offering all spells?
*shrug*

[EDIT] meaning the higher the level of spell, the less likely it would be available in the first place and also the less frequent it would be respawned once purchased?

 

I think I follow what you're saying, Cerulean. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your point is, that for several thousand in gold, a player using this mod could have what amounts to a near-infinite wand of, say, fireballs. Forgive me, but I had foolishly forgotten that the scrolls could be used directly, and not just for scribing.

I disagree with your other point, however. Careful spell selection during level-up was never intended to be the sole source of spells available to a wizard PC in a D&D campaign. Copying scrolls and enemy wizard spellbooks has been a staple for expanding a wizard's selection since the early days of D&D. If I may reiterate my earlier point, a player with a human DM has more options to learn a certain spell than one whose DM is an unfeeling computer. And unless someone has played ToEE enough times to memorize where and what spells are available as treasure, careful spell selection at level-up can be redundant and limiting. What of the player who takes cat's grace and shocking grasp at level-up, and then finds these scrolls shortly thereafter? As a current player in a pen-and-paper campaign, and a former DM, there is no way that I would allow the players access to infinite numbers of scrolls. However, as I point out, the format of a computer game is much different than that of a pen-and-paper one.

I do feel that a wider selection of scrolls to scribe should be available, but I agree that the number of available scrolls should be limited, somehow. So what should the limiting factor be? Once in the spellbook, the limiting factor is the number of spells a wizard can memorize per day. This has always been enough to balance wizards within the framework of D&D. And the spells memorized have to be useful. Knowing three fireballs does no good against the salamanders in the Fire Temple.

Currently, the limiting factor of spell availability in-game is the scrolls placed as treasure. I personally do not feel that this provides enough options, and certainly not enough variability. When scribing, the limiting factors are gold and experience. Of course, both of these are ultimately infinite within the scope of the game, but at any given point in play, they are finite resources. This mod uses gold alone as a limiting factor. Is that enough? Do we need to depend on the player's self-restraint, or is human greed too strong?

There has to be a happy medium here somewhere. Perhaps a more balanced mod would allow Burne to sell a greater selection of scrolls, but at reduced chances depending on spell level. Of course, since Burne currently does not refresh his inventory, that would need to be changed. Then again, allowing Burne to refresh his inventory reopens the possibility of infinite scrolls to the player.

I'm at a conundrum, here. Any suggestions?

 

Well, just for clarification, Copy Scroll and Scribe Scroll are not the same thing. Copy Scroll is used to copy a spell from a scroll to your spell book. Scribe Scroll is used to create a scroll, which may then be sold or used to cast the spell. Scribe Scroll already gives every wizard unlimited castings of a spell per day, so long as you are willing to fight enough monsters to build up the XP and Gold you need to scribe the scrolls you need. Scribe Scroll is also already a money pump, so long as you have an appraise skill of 4 or higher, and probably should be; no mage would sell a scroll for less than it cost him to scribe it. The lack of balance in scribing scrolls in ToEE comes from instant scribing (crafting has the same problem). In tabletop D&D, the DM can restrict scribing by not allowing the player access to the right inks or material components, and by having problems that must be solved right now. If a Wizard wants to scribe a few dozen scrolls before going on a quest, the DM can rule that this will take several weeks, and that the quest must start tomorrow. If you really wanted to gimp Wizards, you might set Scribe Scroll as only useable once per day, and Craft Item at maybe once per week, but most ToEE players would just rest at the inn until they could use it again, so I don't see the point.

As to making all scrolls available for sale, I say go for it. If you really want to make it tougher, do it Burne's Riddles style; all level 1 scrolls are only available after the Moathouse is on your map, all level 2-3 scrolls after Nulb is on the map, all level 4 scrolls after the Temple is on the map, and all level 5 scrolls from a new merchant actually in the temple. Make the scrolls sold by the special merchants limited in quantity (one copy of each scroll) and very expensive. That should put more of an emphasis on Wizards learning their own.

Personally, I rarely use more than 3-4 spells of any given level anyway, except maybe for item crafting. Take two wizards in the party and have them share spell books and you don't need to buy scrolls at all.