My second run of TOEE, trying to beat a time, and selfimposed rules.

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Waterd103, Jul 7, 2009.

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  1. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Member

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    I will make my second run, with a 6 PC, mostly Half-orcs barbarians.

    I want to note something that would be cool if they are improved in future releases of co8.

    -Ranged attackers are to powerless. I had a Ranger with archery specialization who has the better stats of all my team, and he was the most useless character.

    He had 18+2 dex elf stats and i enchanted it a lot. I think it woudl be cool if there are more bows and arrows that are good instead of only +1 wich is all i could find.

    -There are other weapons that doesn't recieve love either. I had a druid that loved to use his sling, but even finding projectiles for her sling was very hard!. finding enchanted sling or proyectiles impossible.(I already hated that you can't use shield+sling). Same happened with her scimitar, i never found a good scimitar.

    - Survival seems useless once you have level 4+ more characters, creatures are pretty weak anyway, i think survival woudl be VERY COOL, if it would improve your chances of resting without disturb.

    -Mass summons is too powerfull imo. Other games only allow for one summon per character but at least is easy to self imposse yourself to not abuse that.

    -Identifying items is boring adn doesn't add anything to the game. Just make you lose times, ESPECIALLY POTIONS and scrolls. YOu need to micro a lot and lose a lot of time.
    I think it would be better if all would be already identified.

    -Mass enchantments are too powerfull.
    Any character wtih all the enchantmaentse is godlike ESPECIALLY STONESKIN.
    I'm thinking in editing the spells myself, since it seems reasonable for my scripting skills.
    I will probably make all enchantaments to be "mass" and you can choose a target for every X levels, but self imposse myself not to use them oustide battles.
    I don't care much now since in this run i will use 5 barbarians and a sorcerer, that will use only offensive magic.

    -I'm thinking about using potions that cure outside battle.

    -It would be nice if The rate of healing is affected by the "heal" skill of all the team (i wonder if this can be scripted)

    -I don't know how much Alignament affected my first run, but i think the concept that alignament is important should be as strong as possible and penalize party for not acting acording to it's alignament (kind of the way baldur's gate tried but failed).

    -Tools that woudl help me, i knwo that it my seems selfish but as they woudl help me , maybe they would help other peopel too. a) give a tool to allow full heal after 8 hours (or allow heal skill to accelerate healing) b) Soem way to make ingame time to run faster.



    Anyway I'm thinking on what rules self impose me so i can enjoy more the run, i'm still delibarting on them, any help is apprecitated
    I will play with the following rules:

    - I will try to beat myprevious time of 32 days and 19 hours.

    - I'm allowed to reload , reroll and add new characteres, but at a cost (i don't feel like the need to explain that, i didn't had to do any of that in my first run anyway)

    - After 8 hours of rest i can use cheat means to restore all my health (Because otherwise the best way to do a good time is have an army of clerics and do a lot of micro, wich is boring)

    - Characteres can't have more than one summon active at the same time.

    - I'm not allowed to use spells outside battle, with a few exceptions. I'm thinking about what those exceptions must be(this is not crazy idea, after all some old D&D computer ames had this same rule). Spells i'm considering
    a) Mage armor
    b) Cure and healing spells
    C) Divination spells

    Any comment and suggestion is appreciated about the list of spells.

    -I'm considering about infinite wand of teleports, used under X condictions. returning from temple level 3 to a town, is a PAINFULL travel

    -Only do actiosn that my team alignament would accept.



    I hear suggestions!
     
  2. Hugh Manetee

    Hugh Manetee Established Member

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    You can get good ranged weapons if you have clerics and wizards who can craft.
     
  3. realmzmaster

    realmzmaster Established Member

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    I have to disagree about ranged attackers. I have a rogue halfling(dexterity 22) with short bow. The rogue is deadly with sneak attack by bow. Also you can enchant the bow above +1. You can use a crossbow. There are bolts that are +1 and +3.

    I had no problem finding bullets for my rogues sling. I had 500 at the end of the game. Also there is a masterwork sling that can be enchanted and a sling + 1.

    Why would you expect the potion and scrolls to be already identified? If your character cannot read the scroll you cannot identify it. If you find a bottle it does not come with a label saying what it is. Now I can see if you already have a potion say cure light wounds identified in your inventory if you found another one then you would know what it is (maybe because poison also looks like the healing potions!).

    Also when Troika created the game it was based on the D & D 3.5 rules. The rules require that someone in the party identify the potion or scroll or have it identified. It is like finding a bottle of liquid in the frig with no label. Are you just going to drink it down?

    What you do not want to do is most of the micro-management of the game. But for many of us that is part of the game. I happen to enjoy the ability to micro-manage my party. What you are suggesting would probably enhance your experience with the game at the expense of mine. By following the D & D rules Troika made sure the gamer knew what to expect.
     
  4. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    I've heard plenty of players say that their ranged PCs were their most powerful by the end of the game. You're giving them the proper feats, aren't you - precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot, etc.? Using a composite long bow?

    Why? You're being treated by an individual, not the entire party. If your cleric with the high heal skill goes down in battle and your fighter with the low heal skill is the only one left to treat you, why should they suddenly be able to perform beyond their capabilities?

    Much of the rest of this just seems like random RAW objections and proposed deviations, which we're not about to indulge after all this time.
     
  5. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Member

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    Yes i did all that, but, my archer couldn't hit thought the though skin resistance of the later mosnters, as he has no way to improve his attack, the only way would be to go through resistancees. But since it's holy, i don't know how to get a ranged weapon without crafting.

    So you can only have a good archer if you have a crafter?

    you can always make it optional, the same way there are already optional things in the game (humbe NPCS, MAX number of characters, Max hit dice , etc)


    I don't know what's random RAW. I just say things that may improve the experience to some people like me.

    In icewind dale there is a mod that do that for example, and you can just turn it on or off.

    I wonder why you care so much about the realistic aspect of having to indentify an option. But don't seem to have a problem about the fact that you can rest 250 years, and nothing happens?

    I mean realism is ok, unless it messes up with your gameplay.
    And the game is full of unrealistic things (like the time) and nobody seems to be doing any fuss about it. Making realistic that you have to spend 3 minutes identifying potiosn after every big battle, doesn't seem something fun actually. But if it's to you, ok, I just wish there was an option to make all identified as other D&D mods do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  6. Hugh Manetee

    Hugh Manetee Established Member

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    Most of us are ruled by time at work.
    If it's a little elastic in a fantasy world it doesn't bother me.
    What allows the suspension of disbelief is going to be different for everybody.
     
  7. Necroticpus

    Necroticpus Cthulhu Ftaghn!

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    I have to agree with ranged weapons in the hands of a rogue being the most god-awful powerful killing machine ever within the game. I used a female human rogue with an enchanted masterwork light crossbow and non-magic bolts. She kills hill giants by herself with 2 shots most times, but sometimes an occasional 3 shot will be in there. I've critted/sneak attacked 3 times in a row for around 160-180 damage, which is insane.

    Just take all the correct skills like point blank shot, precise shot, rapid reload, rapid shot, many shot, crippling strike, weapon focus, etc. Take advantage of catching monsters flat-footed. This is when they are defenseless and take severe damage. Also use positioning. I cannot confirm how much it helps, but I would think shooting a monster at their 6 would yield greater benefits. I haven't really tested that out yet.

    *edit*
    Also, if you run low on bolts or sling bullets, rest in the beginning of the temple where you first go in. Nothing but brigands carrying crossbows and bolts. Find someplace to rest so that you get a high rate of kobolds, they carry sling bullets. I've noticed them the most just as random encounters traveling from one place to the other. For regular arrows, go rest around where there's lots of bugbears.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  8. realmzmaster

    realmzmaster Established Member

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    Waterd103,

    RAW means Rules as Written. Gaear is saying you are making objections to the written 3.5 rules. The mod makers are not going to deviate that far from the rules, which may require fundamentally changing the game engine. This mod is a volunteer effort. The mod makers are doing it because they like the game and want to extend it's life.

    The mod makers make no money for this effort. They cannot charge for the mod without running afoul of Atari the publisher, so it is given away for free. Therefore RL (real life) issues crop up. (Mod makers go to school, have a heavy work load etc). This mod is done in their spare time.

    I commend them for their diligence and dedication.
     
  9. realmzmaster

    realmzmaster Established Member

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    Waterd103,

    This is true, but it is also at odds with other mods for Icewind Dale. In fact with some of the mods for Icewind Dale you are told not to implement the entire mod, because it will clash with other mods. All the IceWind Dale changes are not in one mod.

    The changes for TOEE are all in one mod. It is easy for one to say turn on or off a feature, but once you get into the actual code (which may or may not be properly documented) it can be a different story. Making one change in one place can have an affect in a different part of the code.

    No you cannot rest in TOEE for 250 years and nothing happens, it depends on the quest. Some of the quest are time dependent. You discovered one yourself when you were unable to place the damning evidence on the guards, because you left and came to find no bodies. If you have the Orb of Golden Death destroyed you have four days to kill the final boss in her weakened state, otherwise back to full strength.

    The final boss will always be there, she is trapped with no where to go. So you can take your time getting there she is going nowhere.

    As far as realism in a unrealistic setting, the game is written based on the world of Greyhawk. The realism presented is based on that world. The writer (Gary Gygax) chose to have potions and scrolls be identified. The writer presents what realism he wants to impose based on the D & D 3.5 rules. The writer believed that it is unrealistic for party members to automatically know every potion and scroll.

    There is a reason for this action. Some of the potions you recover are poison. If it was automatically identified you would immediately dump it from inventory. But since you cannot identify it unless you use the Identify spell or have it identified it remains in your inventory. Now you are in an encounter, the enemy casts confusion. Your character is low on hit points and grabs the unknown potion. You either heal yourself or drink poison. This is one of the random elements representing fate.

    The spell Identify is available and at the higher levels the wizard has access to an Analyze spell that identifies everything in inventory for up to five people.

    But, the bottom line is that the mod makers get to decide what realism goes in the mod. They can listen to input form others, but ultimately the final decision belongs to them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  10. Zagig

    Zagig Member

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    Dude, you say that other games have mods that change things like what you're talking about. Seriously, I don't like it but you're right, others might. So, why don't you go and make a mod yourself. You said that you might be able to do it. I gotta add that if there's not a mod already after 5+ years that does the kind of things you suggest, though, then it's probably been tried and can't be done without altering the engine itself.
     
  11. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Member

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    Maybe i will, but besides that, people seems defensive here? or is just my impression?
    The main point of my thread was to people give ideas on self imposed rules that could make my second run more fun, but nobody seemed to notice it, or care about it, wich is fine, but wanted to point it out.
     
  12. realmzmaster

    realmzmaster Established Member

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    Waterd103,

    If your self-imposed rules make it more fun for you go ahead and do it. You are free to roleplay the game as you see fit.
     
  13. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

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    The reasons people are not too impressed with the ideas you put forth are compound. First of all, your blanket statements that "this idea is garbage" or "that aspect of the game is stupid" are tactless and insulting to the modders who worked hard to improve this game from the broken, bugged, unusable version Atari released. Secondly, as others have pointed out, most of your proposed changes violate the RAW conformity that Co8 and ToEE have always been targeted to. The purpose of ToEE and it's mod is to make the most true to pen'n'paper D&D CRPG ever. Your proposed changes do not fit in with that concept.

    Seriously, I go back to the first thing I ever said to you: This probably isn't the best game for you. The strengths and weaknesses of ToEE seem diametrically opposed to your concepts of what makes a good CRPG. Which is neither good nor bad, just the way it is.
     
  14. shoprat

    shoprat Member

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    There is another thing I dont think alot of ppl realize and that is, unlike other games this game wasnt meant to be modded there were no tools to mod the game. So the ppl that have modded this game have done so w/o any help from the creators of the game which is alot more difficult than just using a program that came with the game and having it do something that that particular program allows you to.
     
  15. Emirkol the Chaotic

    Emirkol the Chaotic Proud Polytheist

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    Waterd103, I'm only going to touch on one subject here.... ranged attackers.

    I've used a variety of ranged attackers, including NPC's with extreme success. Yes, you'll need to craft some items and yes you need to take the right feats and yes taken a few levels of Rogue to get "Sneak Attack" rounds out the mix.

    I went around with a party of 8, 3 of which were well-rounded ranged attackers. The damage they could dish out was ungodly at times, but fun and not that overpowering, given the later Temple levels.

    You mention not getting through some creatures skins. It happens with ranged attacks, even maxed and with magic arrows. The same party had a hell of a time piercing demon skin with their attacks.

    I just can't help but feel that you're too impatient with this game. It's not one of "instant-gratification". It's a measured, well-paced, story driven game. Speeding through it, while fun, just doesn't do the game, or the mods, proper justice.
     
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