My Party Post-Game Report Card

OK, after running the game, here's how I think my party did. I'd really like some feedback on some of the lower grade ones, mostly what I was doing wrong or how I could have used them better.

Also, I probably did something wrong off top: all of these characters got level 10 on their primary class, and THEN I started building their secondary task. In all cases the primary was preferred class, but I still think this catch up method didnt do me any favors.

Here goes...

1. Sir Leoric (Human Paladin 10/Cleric 5) -- Steady and reliable, he had decent damage output. Adding the cleric levels really didn't do much for him, just gave me another healer who couldn't heal much (given our level). Solid B.

2. Korgath (Half-Orc Barbarian 10) - A Johnny come lately, I decided to ditch Otis when he missed once too often. He had pretty decent damage output, was a tough sucker, and the rage was helpful. Good front line damage sponge and hurt purveyor, but thats about all. B+.

3. Chinta Kari (Elf Ranger 10/Mage 4) - Ok clearly I went the wrong route with my ranger. I relegated her to an archer, but she just didn't hit very much, and when she did, it didnt hurt. Towards the later levels she did better and I decided to make her a spellflinger to supplement her missile role, but my game ended before I could get any decent spells to make it worthwhile in the new class. She just wasn't effective enough. C-

4. Roustabout (Halfling Thief 10/Fighter 4) - I had him arching, which didn't help much at all. Putting some fighter levels on him, and making an effort to flank and backstab did go a long way to make him a pretty decent fight support role. Plus his thief skills came in super handy throughout. Next time I think I'll build the fighter and thief classes up concurrently. A-

5. Swanmay (Human Cleric 15) - A straight cleric. Her turning skills came in handy, her healing skills of course served me very well, but there really wasn't much else in her considerably repertoire I found super handy other than Flamestrike and Destruction. But by the time you are dealing with demonic characters with huge MRs and only-fail-on-1 saving throws, the (literal) killer spells don't do jack anyway. A-.

6. Dracandros (Human Magic-User 15) - The pure mage and probably my most reliable power puncher. Fireball and Cone of Cold was so effective throughout. Although naturally fragile, any time it was his turn there definitely would be a big heaping level of hurt (if he didn't miscast). Plus with 21 int he had a big wad of spells. A+ all the way.

And for the NPCs I used

Otis - He worked exactly as designed. A crutch character for the low levels, and a pretty fair fighter. But as I leveled him up, he really got worse and worse. Especially the whole "I'm not going to drop my own items" thing so giving him better armor means he had to lug around his chainmail and constantly be weighed down. I ditched him around level 8 when he KEPT missing and just performing horribly. Korgath was his replacement and did much better, even at low levels.

Pitark - Reasonbly tough fighter, did the job. Decent damage, decent hitpoints, but really not much else. He was all right, but just.

Zaxis - Stunk. But I probably didn't play him the best way. Most of the time I used him as an archer and throwing a few Charm Monsters. He really didn't add much more than that, his bard songs didn't seem to help me much.

 

Since I almost never use Otis, I mix a few (usually 4) fighter levels with a barbarian. Access to specialization with say Enlarge+Rage+stat boosting items with whirlwind can result in a lot of damage.

With the ranger, did you make sure to take Precise Shot early? Getting rid of that -4 penalty is sometimes overlooked on the ranger.

 

precise shot, bracers of archery, gloves of dexterity, and sharp shooting all help your archers to hit more often.

 

Also masterwork composite longbows for extra damage

 

Couple of questions: are you playing with Co8 new content and Temple+, and how familiar with 3rd/3.5th Ed D&D?
In terms of pure power in this edition of D&D, there's little doubt that there's a power imbalance between what classes that have access to magic can do, and what mundane classes are capable of. Some of this is limited in a cRPG where the game engine can't accommodate all the shenanigans that an optimized Wizard, Cleric or Druid can pull at a PnP table, but still. In terms of game design, there's evidence of a lot of muddled thinking with the 11 Players' Handbook classes as presented in baseline TOEE: for example, what is a Paladin supposed to represent? Holy Warrior? A cleric does that better. Knight in shining armour? A fighter has more feats. One mitigating factor in all of this is that you build your team, rather than a single character, and it's therefore easier to persuade the magic-using PCs to enhance the power of their mundane allies by casting buffing spells, and by crafting weapons and stat-boosting items.

Comments on your individual characters: Pal10/Cleric5: a Paladin15 has access to (admitted limited selection of) 4th level spells, while 5 levels of Cleric only gets you 3rd level spells, which are great when you are all 5th level but not much use at 15th. Adding a second class after leveling to 10 in the first is rarely optimum, as you found, and adding casting levels to a level 10 mundane/ minor caster is perhaps the best indication of this: first level cleric casting is only really good for a first level character. Cleric 5 then Paladin at least gives you the Cleric casting when it's useful, and if you then want to add a full BAB class you can. Generally though, the best next level for an Nth level Cleric is another level of Cleric. Cleric 15 can cast 8th level spells, has enough slots for Righteous Might to have it active in any combat where you want to use it, can (with the right Domain choices) craft Holy and/or Axiomatic weapons. If I'm making a Paladin, I tend to go all-in with the LG party concept: the Paladin is the charismatic party leader (boost CHA as much as you can for laying on hands) who is accompanied by a Cleric who, when the time is right, crafts them a Holy Axiomatic Cold Greatsword, and generally keeps the healing and the Bull's Strength coming. Perhaps the most useful ability of a high-level Paladin is the Aura of Courage and the fact that they rarely run away, meaning you can rely on them going toe to toe with various demons.
Barbarian 10: Rage is a pretty decent trick, especially early in the game, as is D12 ho per level. I can't remember playing barbarian much beyond 10th level, certainly not in the Temple+ era. The option to rage is useful, but ultimately martial power is built on feats, and you get more choice with fighter levels.
Ranger10/Wizard4: Unfortunately Rangers are pretty poor in 3.5E D&D: fewer HP than other full BAB classes, weaker animal companion than a druid, fighting styles only really give you early or easier access to options that aren't necessarily that good (if you're gonna two-weapon fight, you're gonna want high dex anyway, and you still need twice the investment in weapons compared to the guy with the big sword in two hands). Few-level dips in Wizard in this game are only really useful as a way of bypassing need for Use Magic Device: a Rogue15/Wiz1 can use a Wand of Chain Lightning/Fireball10/Haste/Greater Invisibility just as effectively as a Wiz16, freeing up that character to do other stuff. I've done this a few times when I've had only one arcane caster in the party (wizard but no bard), and it only delays Sneak Attack progression by one level.
If you want to make an Archer, my preferred method is to make a Rogue with enough strength to use a composite shortbow14, or perhaps to be able to graduate to a composite longbow18 (be an elf, or buy/find bracers of archery, or take Swashbuckler levels) and find some way of having Greater Invisibility in play most of the time. Point blank, precise, rapid shot. Keen, holy, frost bows. Dex boosters. If you are using Temple+, the Swashbuckler class and Daring Outlaw feat synergize beautifully with Rogue, (Rog and SwB levels stack for Sneak Attack, so 3 levels of Rog and the rest Swashbuckler gives you full Sneak Attack, almost full BAB, Weapon Finesse, and access to Longbows, at the expense of a slightly awkward course until you reach 6th level, loss of Rogue skills that you don't really need, and a requirement to choose your (relatively few) feats carefully. Alternatively, switching to Assassin eventually makes you independent for the purposes of casting Greater Invisibility.
If you want a Nature-based PC, Druid is better than Ranger, if you want a light, agile fighter, a Rogue, or, better, a Swashbuckler with full sneak attack progression via Daring Outlaw, is what you actually want.
Thief10/Fighter4: the key to successful Roguing is sneak attack. Detractors will point out that there are vast numbers of monster types in D&D that are immune, to which I respond that the only ones that feature much in this game are undead, oozes, and plants, neither of which are particularly troublesome in this game to a balanced party (you'll almost certainly have access to turning against undead, for instance, and the plants and oozes are pretty late and can be dealt with by other means). Fighter dips can be useful for getting you a feat just when you need it, or giving Longbow proficiency; if you use Temple+, Swashbuckler is better. Embrace flanking and sneak attacks- max out tumble skill (I do this for everyone anyway). That said, giving up a level of fighter to gain +1D6 sneak attack isn't a bad choice, and nor is 3 levels for 2D6. I believe there is a Fighter variant somewhere that gets to take dice of Sneak Attack as a feat, and especially in this game where dealing damage is important, it's a valid choice. It's relatively easy to ensure you get your Sneak Attack damage, and relatively difficult to ensure that (for example) Combat Reflexes or Whirlwind Attack alway pay off. A level or three of Rogue is a useful addition to a martial character (I sometimes do it with Elmo). But see my points on Swashbucklers above if you are wanting a more full-on fighting 'Rogue'.
Cleric15: Always going to be solid, quite how depends on your diety and thus Domains: perhaps the most useful combo overall is Good+Earth (Moradin) which gives you Holy Smite (and crafting of Holy weapons), plus Spike Stones which is the spell I miss most if I don't have a Druid with me. Sun gives Improved Turning which is useful early on. Strength gives Enlarge Person. Righteous Might turns you into a combat monster, and is available to all. Crafting. Heal. Holy Word (consider limiting your party to only those of good alignment, or be careful about your area of effect).
Wizard15: always going to be a key figure. Evocations are actually relatively weak, though in this game where laying down the damage is still important, it's not so obvious. Battlefield control (Web, Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill), the various Summon spells. I always build my Wizards with an eye on how they can support my other characters. Crafting weapons and items such as stat-boosters, and casting spells like Haste, Stoneskin and Greater Invisibility can get your non-magic characters doing more damage for longer, and are often pre-fight buffs anyway.

NPCs: Elmo. If I take him, I usually level him up as a straight Fighter. If you talk to him a few times, you get the option to let you manage his equipment better. He's a bit invested in his Battleaxe, which is a shame since there aren't any particularly good Battleaxes in the game. There is a sword that requires very little additional investment for a CG character, is you are interested in using it, and if you go with leveling him up as a fighter you get enough feats to do whatever you want eventually. As a Fighter, he needs investment in his weapons: get crafting.
Pintark: never used him. Decent stats if I recall but the main thing is he's a few levels behind when you get access to him. I guess he catches up okay eventually given how this game deals with XP for lower level characters. Is he interesting to talk to?
Zaxis: Cons: sound files can get a bit annoying, and because he's an NPC you can't use him for what you'd usually use a bard for, i.e. interacting with other NPCs using the various skills (gather info, bluff, intimidate etc). Pros: you can therefore focus his skill points where they are needed, i.e. Perform, Tumble, Sleight of Hand (there's one point in the game where pickpocket ING is pretty useful, but not so much that you want to invest lots of points in this for a main PC, especially if your starting Rogue went down the route of being an Assassin or Swashbuckler). I never really explored Bardoc music that much: Inspire courage is a decent boost at lower levels when your other options are limited; Inspire competence is useful for passing your skillchwck if you need the extra bonus. Bards have a limited selection of spells, but some useful ones: Zaxis taught me how useful glitterdust is (at lower levels it's a reliable way of rendering foes susceptible to sneak attack damage) and Tasha's Hideous Laughter, which is a level 1 spell for Bards and still effective at high levels. Later on he has access to Dominate Person, plus a good selection of other buff spells that I always use: Haste, Greater Invisibility, plus things like Greater Heroism and Break Enchantment that stop certain enemies messing with your main characters' heads. Craft him a decent ranged weapon and he can contribute a bit to combat later on, but his main utility for me is, well, utility spellcaster.
More generally: Spells are spells, they are easy to switch out or add in (Clerics and Druids automatically know all the non-domain spells available to them at each level, and Wizards can copy scrolls to add to their spellbooks). Obvious power is obvious, but particularly in this game the ability of casters to make casters more awesome through buffing spells and crafting is vital to having a party where all contribute. Alignment based damage, elemental damage, Keen, Wounding (if using Temple+) are all good options. Battlefield control, taxing your enemy to move through an area (Spike growth, Spike stones) or to stay put (Cloudkill, raining down Fireballs and other evocations), and giving your non-casters more attacks (Haste), more effective attacks (Greater Invis + sneak attack), and more staying power (Stoneskin, healing) all help.
For non-casters, Feat selection is vital. Feats are where a Fighter gets his power, but unlike spells you don't get to swap them out every time you sleep. Some are poor but are necessary to build to something better; sometimes a complex feat tree isn't worth the investment (it takes a lot to get Whirlwind Attack, for example, and I'm not sure I've ever used it to do more damage in a round than which Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave (requires Power Attack and Cleave) and a heavily enchanted reach weapon. Point Blank Shot is a tax that gives you access to Precise Shot, which you need to fire into melee without penalty. I think Rapid Shot is worth it but Manyshot not. Telling Blow (Sneak Attack damage to critical hits, available using Temple+) is good for higher level Rogues and Rogue/Swashbucklers with Daring Outlaw. Improved Critical I think has a feat 'tax' and thus not as good as making your weapon Keen instead. Quick Draw is useful for having the right weapon always to hand (and late game, for Legolas-style grandstanding: I stab the Orc in front of me to death, follow up [Cleave/Great Cleave] against the two behind me, then switch to my longbow and fire three arrows into the Shaman, who takes D8+4[Strength bonus] +8D6[sneak attack] + 2D6 [holy] + D6[cold] damage, and loses a point of CON, per hit).
Apologies, that was rather more than I intended to write. If you are new to this game, I'm kind of jealous: it's still fun to play for me after 20 years due the the various mods and upgrades, largely due to the wide choice of ways to build and optimize a character. If you do have Temple+ available to you already, there's a huge amount there which I'm still working through in terms of character-building options; if you don't well, there's even more still waiting for you.

 

In short, Nightcanon gave a lot of useful info.

Something to emphasize: D&D 3.x allows for a LOT of customization! I've made a full Wizard who took Martial Weapon Proficiency (glaive), Cleave, and Great Cleave because I had the feats and was high enough level. It worked well.

Thankee!

 

Way too little detail to give meaningful commentary

 

Spike Chain (reach weapon) on an Enlarged Rogue under Fog Cloud seems to be a reliable way to sneak attack to not need fighter levels and to have synergy with Combat Reflexes and Whirlwind attack, is it not? Without Temple+ every reach weapon seems to be better Spike Chain. I also heard Monk with enchanted holy and cold Rake is good in this game because of the number of attacks (compare that to say a Paladin who's supposed to be an evil fighter). Also which swashbuckler did they use for Temple+? There seems to be a lot of classes considered swashbuckler each with different skills and I don't know what sources apply to Temple+ and does Power Attack bonus apply automatically here?

 

Swashbuckler is from Complete Warrior. I'm not sure what other ones you're thinking of. There are other classes with similar flavor (like Duelist), but I don't know if there is more than one that is actually called, "swashbuckler."

 

https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/baseCwar/swashbuckler.html
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Swashbuckler_(Class)
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/PFSRD:Swashbuckler

It's just confusing for those new to dnd. Looks like the first one, I figured, is the one that applies for TemplePlus at least. Discovered which one is the real one via the Daring Outlaw feat which I've only figured out enabling non-core material since apparently upgrading to Swashbuckler is allowed without that option checked. Also, is Power Attack an automatic or manual feat? There doesn't seem to be a power attack option in the UI.

 

Oh, I see. Yeah. The second one is d20 modern (trying to use the 3rd edition rules for, well, a modern setting; I don't know much about it). The third one is Pathfinder, which was sort of an offshoot by another company after official 3.5 was winding down. It contains a lot of rewrites of previous stuff (and even its own stuff).

I usually stick a "3.5" in the search when I'm looking for stuff, which seems to filter out those two. Although I guess that also gets you someone's homebrew swashbuckler class.

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If you have power attack, there should be a radial menu (toward the bottom left, I think) that lets you select how many 'points' you want to power attack for. Then it stays there until you change it, and applies to all your attacks. It's not a separate type of attack in the combat menu, though.

 

Stay away from dandwiki - it's historically known for mixing in homebrew along with official content and leads to a lot of confusion (though it's possible they may have cleaned things up more recently).

Save yourself a lot of confusion and use this if you need an online link for core books (Player's Handbook, DM Guide, Monster Manual) content:
https://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

If you need info on Temple + options (which adds splatbook/non core book stuff) use your first link (the srd.dndtools one) or use this:

https://dndtools.one/classes

And always remember... not everything is implemented in TOEE/Temple+ exactly the way it is in tabletop 3.5e. Read the ingame descriptions.

 

Oh, perhaps I should add...

I forget which of those sites I saw it on (either dndwiki or dndtools), but sometimes they will add text that was not in the original printing that is based on a particular (internet) interpretation of how some rule works (which is not quite homebrew, but...). For instance, I once looked up an ability that lowers the cost of using metamagic. In the original printing, you could interpret it as lowering the total cost increase for a spell by 1, or lowering each metamagic's cost by 1 (with the former probably being the reasonable power level). However, it is common for internet power gamers to say that the latter is what it does, and one of those sites had inserted an example that made the latter interpretation look official. The examples in the original text only explained how the ability worked for spells with a single metamagic applied (hence the ambiguity).

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Unfortunately d20srd (which I use a lot, and would also recommend) sometimes has the opposite problem. The printed books will have clarifying examples that make it clear which interpretation of a somewhat ambiguous rule is intended. But the freely available SRD omits those examples, and people try to argue for weird rulings based on it.

 

If I google "swashbuckler 3.5" the SRD Swashbuckler from Complete Scoundrel. You also get some optimization discussion from the Giant in the Playground site, some of which argues that Swashbuckler is weaker than a straight rogue, which may be true for your one PC in a tabletop game, but doesn't really apply here (I'm often using my Swashbuckler in place of a fighter, rather than a rogue, and will have another character with rogue skills in addition). Basically you get full BAB (so a Rog 3 Swa X has BAB one less than a pure fighter at a given level); D10 (equal to Fighter, better than Ranger or Rogue) and, once you pick up Daring Outlaw feat (Swashbuckler levels count fully towards Sneak attack progression) better damage. You are rather limited in feats, so while you can build a Swashbuckler to use Fragarach to optimise melee damage (Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Craven, Improved Critical) you won't also be able to be a Turret (Point Blank Shot, Prevcse Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Critical, Craven, Telling Blow). With a fighter you could probably collect all of these, but you'd miss out on the sneak attack damage (which is probably easier to trigger in this game than in PnP).

 

I figured the swashbuckler being the fighter replacement was obvious but do you really need the rogue skills that much in this game beyond rogue 3? This game seems imbalanced enough for Wizard Knock to replace Rogues. Another example seems to be Weapon Focus being bad. https://people.math.wisc.edu/~jheim/Pathfinder/weapons.php . This game seems to be both overwhelming with choice like paralyzing at the start but also have the illusion of choice since the feats, races and classes choices seem limiting.