Modding and game difficulty

I realize that if you are a newcomer this might seem baffling, but after playing this game for over 5 years and being a D+D fan for 25, I think something the modders should keep in mind is the balance.

The original game NEVER intended mods to exist. The added experience, gold and magic was something he original game did not count on, and with the added content, the game is too easy. By the time I get to the temple, I am about level 6, sometimes 7, and that is too easy for the level 1 and 2 dungeons.

I think the easiest fix is to make levelling up harder. Make getting a new level cost more XP. Making encounters harder won't work, as players will expect something from hard encounters. But making it harder to get that next level that allows you to craft, or cast fireballs, or have 2 attacks a round, would make a huge difference. I am not sure how to do it or if it would be a hard hack, but to me it seems if the modded content is included, manditory to the games' survival for sure, then making the game harder to progress by levels seems the only way to do it.

 

I don't agree. But, the way to go is to adjust the game so you get fewer experience points. It may even be possible for non-modders to change that in their own games. I'm not sure why I think this. Something I saw long ago?

 

I remember Cerulean the Blue talking about this a long time ago. The consensus among modders then was not to change the XP awards - Troika already has it set at only 70% of RAW, and they felt further diminishing the XP by itself would not solve the problems of game imbalance. I tend to agree - IMO one of the main causes of imbalance is the overabundance of magic loot and the surplus of gold all the extra loot generates. This makes crafting uber weapons too easy (the surplus XP helps here, too) and allows a party to buy pretty much anything they desire by the time they hit the lower levels of the Temple.

I believe the modders are working on a rebalancing project which combines several ideas to minimize the effects of game modding on game imbalance. IIRC, the rebalancing overview includes moving many of the added areas to the end game where they will have less effect on game balance. I'm sure Gaear or ShiningTed or someone can expand on the goals of the rebalancing project.

 

Well, I never crafted a single weapon, and just a handful of marvelous itens with a Cleric and a Druid, and I need to say: Life is HARD for someone that dont use crafted itens! We need to think what magic weapons we have on hand, and they are few and no very powerfull, and somethimes the part just havent enough itens to win DR or to hit right some enemies... Even a well build group without crafted weapons will suffer in the temple, and the fourth level is very hard this way. The nodes are a baaad joke for a 12 or so group of just-in-game equiped group, specialy the earth and the fire ones - well, the fire node is realy, realy hard to clear, even WITH crafted weapons, I think!
So, I dont think we need to turn the XP more hard to aquire, or something like this... Take off the craft feats and this people will dance a new music! But, to be realy true, I think that just adding a single or a couple of barbarian/fighter/rogue levels in every Ogre, Bugbear and Gnoll we find in the temple - maybe even a rogue level in each goblin - will make a HUGE diference!

Ah, and think about to read the "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" pnp adventure! Is a pool of great new ideas! (just forget about that Ranger levels on Elmo, and we will be right!)

 

I don't know that my opinion has any value, but that has never stopped me from
offering one. Heh. So here goes.

Most of you, maybe all of you, have a lot of experience, either in D&D pnp or just
playing this game, or both. You know how to do it.

I am not experienced and have no background to draw on. I did not find it easy.
I don't think I could have gotten through the game without the input and help you
all gave me. I did not have gazillions of money or uber weapons and equipment.
For me, it was not unbalanced.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, who is the game intended for, anyway? Does
making it 'balanced' for experienced users mean someone like me will find it too
hard to play? I guess there is a choice there. I'm just glad I found ToEE when it
was 'unbalanced' enough for me to have a chance.

Sorry if this sounds grouchy. I am. I don't mean to offend anyone.

Edit: I suppose I don't understand the whole concept of modding. So take what I
said with a grain of salt.

 

just my 2 cents.....
Not all the "modding" that has been done has made the game more difficult; in fact a lot of the restating of the monsters has corrected area's where unless you made a lot of magical weapons you would not get through.. The bugbears for example on level 3 where a literal "killer" or even going up against Zugtomy or Ioz. The game was unbalanced from the start; along with problems in the game engine... So my hats off to those that spent the time correcting issues in a game that Atari released knowing they were there....

You always have a choice.... don't download a game mod, don't install it and don't play it... but sitting here bitching that it's too hard now??? Forget it!

 

Nah, I don't think it was "bithcing" so much about the game being hard, per se. The games a bit daunting when you start out. I remember feeling a little overwhelemed myself when I first started palying and I'm a veteran PnP and PC RPG'er. I can completely understand completely someone playing this, who's never really played or been introduced to RPG's considering it "hard"

In my many play throughs, with and without mods, I still found the game either very challenging, very easy, or somewhere in the middle. It almost always comes down to playing style with quite a bit of "trial and error" or "what happens if I try it this way".

 

My solution is simple. Bypass Temple 1 since I find it to be a boring dungeon crawl. I did it once - on my first time - with a LG paladin-led party that had no choice but to kill. That was enough for me. It was still a bit challenging even though my party was a bit overpowered at level 6, I think. Now that I know the map I just head for the stairs. Sparing a few ghouls and bugbears never hurt anyone, right?

I feel the same way about Emridy Meadows (which was not in the original module). Do you really need Smyth's MW items and the giant's loot?

My evil party of about 6 characters is currently level 5 and starting the Temple. They did not do Emridy, Imryds, Big 3, or even clear the Moathouse dungeon of its living denizens - hmm no respawn.

There are truly so many options. So, if you see your party getting too powerful and you already know the game well, be selective with the quests and the adventures and you can balance it yourself.

 

One simple question,

When you say that most of the new content will go to the end, are you meaning after dealing with Zuggy ?(in whichever outcome preferred)

 

I think making the content available at the end will defeat the purpose of the mods. The game NEEDS the mods to make the game non-boring. Making it so you have to wait to the end will not only frustrate some but make the game pointless to many.

So, if you are level 9 or 10 how is Verbobonc going to work? The encounters then will be ridiculously easy, same for Hickory Branch, and if players are going to walk right through them unchallenged, I can see the mods being something not looked forward to. And the excellent added magic becomes useless as by the time you get it there is only one or two encounters left. I am not sure I would like it this way.

Still, I think leaving the game the way it is (freeroaming, really) and making the XP for levelling up is the only answer. That way any more added mod content will NOT get moved to the back of the game and make you go through EVERYTHING to get to it at which point it may be pointless.

 

So after the game is over and you are maxed out, THEN you take on Hickory Branch? Talk about Armageddon.

Doesn't the game immediately end with Zuggy's death?

 

I would like to add something to this debate, as I have some experience with the original TOEE module.

Firstly, the adventure was unbalanced to begin with. No, I don't mean Troika's game, I mean the original module. I was the DM (running the game) for two different parties that went through the TOEE. By the time both groups finished the whole temple, they were grossly wealthy (one party even went so far as to set up a gem shop in Hommlet and drive the gem dealer out of town). So, everyone is going to have enough money to craft lots of items.

Secondly, Crafting is supposed to be harder than they have made it. In PnP, it can take weeks to craft a major magic item!! In Troika's version, it takes ... what ... 30 seconds. Therefore, it's also now easier to craft.

Add the two problems together, and you get a somewhat unbalanced game. I don't think anything would be solved by moving the new quests to the end. If you want to balance the game, do as has been suggested and balance it yourself.