Material Components Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'ToEE Toolset Project Documentation' started by Half Knight, Aug 14, 2008.

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  1. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Ok, i'll try :)

    And... that's a yay or nay? :errf:
     
    Half Knight, Aug 14, 2008
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  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    Well, its a nay inasmuch as the majority of the rest of the community don't want the hassle of buying / collecting / tracking / using spell components.

    They have a lot of RP potential - quests would make a lot more sense if the pay-off was something that allowed you to cast spells you couldn't otherwise - but that, in turn, assumes a long campaign. (Imho).
     
    Shiningted, Aug 15, 2008
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  3. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    I see.
    Yes, it would be complicated to keep track of each component...but that's what i meant with a belt.
    A single item, which it's assumed that has the necesary components (a Bat-belt :) ). If you have it equipped, then you can cast spells. If not...sorry, non material please. that would make players think a bit more which spells to choose "just in case" ;)
    Keeping track of components can be neglected due to ovbious reasons, and it can be assumed that players find/buy and refill the belt with the necessary stuff in and between adventures or each time they go to town. Of course, they should have some gold deducted, but it would be complicated and can be neglected too.
    Still, by having an item (be it a belt or holy symbol) you open a lot of oportunities.

    The idea of spell components as quest is great too. For example, to cast Scorcher you need a red dragon scale :eek:
    You could find a red dragon scale, and using the same principle of the keys, they'll got "on the list" this meaning you add it on the belt. Now you could cast Scorcher.
    I dunno if something like that could be possible, tho :blush:
     
    Half Knight, Aug 15, 2008
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  4. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    Yes, very possible - and the 'belt' could just be the standard pouch of components for spell-casting:
    Easy enough to use internal flags to count off 20 uses of the pouch, or whatever, then you have to buy a new one. Interesting, exotic or expensive items such as that new sword spell Darmagon did which has
    would be bought, organised or quested for seperately.

    The only down sides are;

    - big enough campaign / module to warrant all those items
    - inventory slots for all those items (new backpacks, anyone? Or an 'Extraplanar Chest' dealey where-in the script obliterates all non-component items put into it, to prevent abuse)
    - most people who have given feedback on this issue still don't want it
    RAW please :eyebrow:
     
    Shiningted, Aug 15, 2008
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  5. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    Just because I refuse to let a simple discussion go by without complicating it :)

    1) The game is supposed to ignore material components costing less than 100gp. I believe HK wants to add a "Belt of Infinite Components Costing Less Than 100 GP" and make spells using such components check for the Belt -- if you have it, no problem. If you're buck naked and chained to a wall -- problem. I assume HK would have the Belt be trivially available -- the purpose isn't to block normal casting, but rather to let modders disable spells with material components at certain key role-playing times. Basically, the Belt acts like old-school Thives' Tools (when you couldn't pick a lock without the tools, not the new-age you get a +2 with the tools but can still pick without tools).

    I'm for it, unless play testing shows an unacceptable performance hit for the spell casting overhead.

    2) You could be uber-creative and allow "spell enhancement components" -- fireball with no "enhancement component" is normal, but spend a Red Dragon Scale and get it Maximized (or Widened, or whatever). Totally not RAW, so should irritate Basil :)P) and would be awesome squared.

    --thearioch
     
    thearioch, Aug 15, 2008
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  6. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    The latter idea would be sorta doable, yeah. Interesting.
    No, I think you will find that ToEE is simply set up that way for ease of use. The SRD says the Spell Component Pouch covers everything that doesn't have a specific cost - bat guano, live spiders, pinch of sulfur etc. It says elsewhere
    so something like Magic Mouth which requires 10gp of jade dust would not be covered by the pouch.

    You are probably right about what H_K is suggesting, I am simply saying if we are going to do this we should do it by the rules.
     
    Shiningted, Aug 15, 2008
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  7. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    Dammit, i wish i could have posted that way. :clap:
    Exactly what i meant! :)

    You too!
    I was thinking that, some kind of charges like wands....but i thougth it would be too hard to do.

    -you can have some found via quest...and also, what's for the damned merchant's guild? There aren't so many rare components to say "we need to add 100 items in the protos" ;)
    -well, an extraplanar chest with a belt/pouch icon woul do it, right? The same belt that let's you cast freely can store the special stuff. Or as i've said, the special items could work as keys, no slot needed. After all it simple to put a different icon.
    -Poll Poll Poll! I think the players have changed with time. Also, we don't want each material, just the expensive. That way you could put different rewards without having to grant magic items. If a player don't want it, well, it can be sold.


    And, to shut you up both, there are RAW "enhancement items", and Scorcher it's absolutely RAW. ;rant:
    The main known material is Darkwood, but actually, there's a ton of materials, from metals that do 1 or 2 extra points of damage (thus, a sword deals 1d8 +2 fire without being magical), to herbs to use in Druid's infusions ( a bunch of non-magical "potions" that druids can craft), to gems that added to wands/rods or used as extra component increase the DC or the spells effect/damage. :eyebrow:
    Scorcher is in fact Aganazzar's Scorcher, a spell from Forgotten Realms. Recently, it's been added (along with all spells of all settings) to the D&D 3.5 Edition - Dungeons & Dragons - Spell Compendium, changing the specific names to neutral.
    Scorcher works like Lightning bolt, but does fire damage. I'm working on it, changing the type damage is simple, but the particle effect it's quite complicated :)
     
    Half Knight, Aug 15, 2008
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  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    Forgotten Realms? Thats cheating :p Alright, my mistake.

    Poll your heart out :)

    EDIT: Metamagic Components

    2nd EDIT: It seems to me that if we are going to bother doing this, then adding the bonus of metamagic components will balance the introduced cost / nuisance value of adding the normal material components in the first place. Otherwise its really just a major burden on spellcasters, albeit with an RP pay-off.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008
    Shiningted, Aug 15, 2008
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  9. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    hey Ted, if you're not convinced, then we stop talking. maybe is too much work... :errf:
    i didn't wanted to sound dense :blush:

    Personally, i would love to see something like that implemented. It will also add some limit to excesive power, and depth to something really complex in pnp, that ToEE covers poorly. Have in mind the crafting feats, or the wrong way that wands are handled :cartman:

    The metamagic component looks cool. I didn't know it, it's more or less what i've told about materials, but much more powerful. It will give some utility to the many gems and jewelry in the game.
    Again, if you feel this is too much troubles and little gain, then forget it, and let's add it to "HK's babbling" list :blahblah: :)
     
    Half Knight, Aug 15, 2008
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  10. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    Nah, that list is too bulky as it is :icon_chuc

    I am quite convinced! thats why I have pushed this in the past. I am just reiterating the negatives that have been brought up before. Since I am already adding things like 'Dragon Bile' to the game, adding harvestable material components is fine by me, and I like the challenge of scripting a spell component pouch as well as the opportunities of having hard-to-find foci and components. I say we go for it, but only if the rest of the folks want such a drastic change to their game.

    EDIT: Amazing how much stuff in the game already counts as material components. Even those little blobs of wax I added for the heck of it in KotB are the material components of 'Ghost Sound'. Heh.

    2nd EDIT: Ok, I don't know how much of this was discussed publically but there was always an intention of adding fallen Druids and Clerics (to go with our fallen Paladins) to KotB: if you open up the dlg files you might find little comments like 'good cleric -1' etc. While we never decided on an exact way to do it, demanding the presence of an Holy Symbol as a divine focus to cast spells, then removing it when the character falls, seems as good a way as any, so I'm going to run with it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008
    Shiningted, Aug 15, 2008
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  11. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    I like my modules to be, well modular, so...

    Make the check for the belt be a utility function with psuedocode like:

    function HasGenericMaterialComponents()
    {
    if (player_is_lame)
    {
    return (TRUE;
    }
    else
    {
    return (pc_has_belt);
    }
    }

    Me, I'd have Jade Empress ask the character's if their player is lame at the start of the game and set a flag (thus making the player actively confirm lameness), but as I've mentioned before, I'm a dick. :) Nicer modders might rename the variable and set it as flag in an INI files or something.

    --thearioch
     
    thearioch, Aug 16, 2008
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  12. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    Hmmm. That's not such a silly idea:

    Jade Empress: Will you be using the material components, or the console?

    and since the whole 'check for material component / decrement pouch' bit etc will be called from one script, it will then only be one extra line at the start of the script.

    But seriously, it'll be a pouch, not a utility belt. At least until H_K makes meshes with their underwear on the outside.

    EDIT: On a tangential note:
    Code:
    Identify
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Magic 2, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Targets: One touched object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The spell determines all magic properties of a single magic item, including how to activate those functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if any).
Identify does not function when used on an artifact.
Arcane Material Component: A pearl of at least 100 gp value, crushed and stirred into wine with an owl feather; the infusion must be drunk prior to spellcasting.
    Does this mean clerics with the Magic Domain get to dodge the 100gp cost of casting Identify?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2008
    Shiningted, Aug 16, 2008
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  13. Shiningted

    Shiningted The Thunder of Justice Administrator

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    I get to double post, 'cause I'm too sexy for this thread :kiss:

    Here is a list of all the spells in the SRD - all 41 pages of 'em (plus Ray of Clumsiness) - with their components, foci and costs listed. I made this since I couldn't find it on the net anywhere, surprisingly - I'll turn it into a blog later for the wider world to Google.

    Anyone who wants to have a look / think / comment, please do. You can very quickly see which and how many spells would be affected by the introduction of material components, and what sort of items would start turning up in the game.

    EDIT: May or may not require Microsoft Word to view correctly. Try it in Wordpad.
     

    Attached Files:

    Shiningted, Aug 16, 2008
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  14. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    @Ted -- I'm glad you don't think the Jade Empress idea is silly -- I had planned on using it (or something like it) to let characters choose Old Faith as a religion as part of my Conversion Quest conversions. As well as other "start of game" settings.

    --thearioch
     
    thearioch, Aug 16, 2008
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  15. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Re: New Feats for the ToEE Engine

    Ted, you are correct, Magic Domain Clerics avoid the 100gp material cost.

    If you guys want to enable magic pouches, I say more power to you! Blow through 20 charges (total, right?) and need to buy a new one. Some might complain that their wizard would be too smart to forget to stock up. I say, that is the reason behind Power Word: Reload, to use when you get caught with your pants down.

    The metamagic components are just way too expensive, if you make them marketable. Many would agree that Wealth is key in this game. If you put them in the game and a character makes a good spellcraft check, he will know how to use it. I'm ok with use it or lose it.

    P.S. You might have missed my mention of: Ability Focus (stunning fist) - add +2 to the DC. Possible?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
    Basil the Timid, Aug 18, 2008
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