Making solo more difficult?

So I found about halfway through the game with my optimized party that it was entirely too easy and wasn't fun anymore. Most battles would just revolve around auto attacking melee since I didn't need to even use my arsenal of spells. So I decided solo would be a good option to make it more difficult and actually have to use some legitimate strategy.

I rolled up a cleric with strength and good domains figuring I'd need all the buffs and gave him UMD for scrolls and wands. While the first couple of levels were a little tough, within an hour or so I was already mowing down things that were even much more difficult with a full party of lower levels. Army of undead? Turn them. Hill Giant? Buff up and destroy him. Room full of mobs? Enlarge size + reach weapon + cleave + combat reflexes = toast. Then I went and got Scather which made it even easier...

I thought that it might even be a tough battle when I went to the temple secret entrance and had to battle that entire room of brigands... Buffed up outside the door including haste potion... I never loss more than a quarter of my life... That fight was so much more difficult with my full party of 6 before.

Anyways what are other people doing to add difficulty to the game? I made the mistake of giving my character max stats and max hps thinking it'd be so hard I'd need it. I realize now it was overkill, but even had I not I think I'd still be doing well. Not to mention things like ring of invisibility, freedom of movement, etc.. just make it that much easier.

I don't want to totally gimp myself out of enjoyment by not allowing magic items, or unnecessary rules like(no potions or scrolls) but I do want to make it a bit more difficult. I want to be able to play by the standard rules the game provides but not have the game be too easy.

-Use legitimate stats and hps
-No Scather/Fragarach, maybe limiting myself to only normal weapons that I have to craft myself.
-Limit cleric levels? Maybe only take a couple levels(or only 1) to get turn and domain powers, then MC to something else?

Any ideas?

 

Legitimate stats its very relative, once ya can roll 30, 40 times to get a good roll.

I like to play this game with the point buy system. Believe me, its very chalenging! Stats make a lot of diference in the game, more in the beggining. Roling 1d8 hp without the bônus of Con, or dont having a positive bônus of Charisma to turn undeads, or no bônus of DX to AC, our no ST bônus on hits... Ya need strategy? Ya will need strategy from on the creation of the character with point buy system!

Go on, I dare ya!

 

I will give the normal stats a try. I really though I'd have to max them to get anywhere but was quickly proven wrong. Point buy seems a good idea since you can roll forever until you get good rolls.

I'm also thinking of some sort of strange builds(assuming I go higher than 10 due to the difficulty) like:

Rogue 3 (skill monkey, UMD and 2d6 SA damage, evasion)
Fighter 2(bonus feats, martial weapons and extra HD)
Barb 2(40ft movement, rage, uncanny dodge and good HD)
Cleric x (domain powers and turning and buffs)
Druid x(for casting with light armor and item/weapon crafting and buffs)

Stay in light armor for no movement penalty. Grab cleric domain strength for enlarge person spell and use reach weapon. Focus on melee damage and buffs instead of trying to nuke everything.


Or I could go caster route with fighter/cleric dips to fill the gaps. No armor but high dex/uncanny dodge and bracers of armor to keep up AC. Still using reach weapon to help out in tough fights. 5ft step and get free AoO is the best method for defeating lots of enemies.

 

If u want some 'real' dificulty use ranger/monk/rogue as front line units , have yr melee guys dual wield(to ensure they barely hit smth eaven with sureal' stats and if they hit the dmg is low u wanna slap yrself to make sure u aren't dreaming) use only 1 type of melee dmg for all melee (most infective one like say: pierce or slash) don't use any direct dmg spells, use the point buy system to generate the chars and its quite obvious :no reach weapons (maybe one for cleric/druid since there will be heineous amounts of dmg to be healed on party members so the healer needs to stay alive)
Pls try my sugestions and if u still find the game easy ... ask for some more :evilgrin:

 

Well the point was doing it solo. If I wanted a real challenge I'd make 5 monks haha. To be honest the game was more immersive for me solo instead of micro managing 5 pcs and a couple npcs. Fights took far too long, game was choppier the minutia of looting and selling items in order to get enough money for all 5 pcs got old. Not to mention I never even used 2/3 of the spells because there was never a reason to...

Playing solo with high difficulty made me actually use a lot of spells the way they were intended to be used. Why bother with "hold person" when you can just kill that person and his 3 friends in a massive cleave attack? That's what a typical battle turned out to be mid game for me. Much easier to send in the heavy hitters and cleave to death than to waste time with a bunch of spells. Fireball, web and a few others were nice, but most spells just seemed useless to a strong party.

I really wish reach weapons worked as RAW. They're the only reach weapon that hits at 5 and 10ft increments, but their low damage and crit rate were sub par and you had to burn a feat to use them. Unfortunately you can use any ranged weapons in TOEE and accomplish the same thing which makes the chain not only pointless, but a waste.

At any rate I'm going to start new tonight using the 28 pnt buy system. Yes I know it's 25, but going solo I figured 28 is a bit more natural since even the original adventure suggested that number. I guess since troika expected you to use a full party you could get away with weaker stats. Those extra 3 points seem fair.

My goal is to get through the game with no Scather/Frag, using no exploits or cheats. I will save Thommel and get the rewards but will sell Scather as it makes the game way too easy. I like the idea of having to sneak up on enemies and not always rely on just overpower them with force. Will try to use many of the spells I'd previously overlooked as well, where that charm person might actually make the fight doable versus just trying to auto attack and cross your fingers for a lot of crits and great cleaves.

If only chains weren't made useless I'd totally rock that Holy Chain and pimp it out as my main weapon! Pointless for me to burn a feat for a inferior weapon though

 

Hmmm. Personally, I dont find ToEE to be a particularly easy game, but that may be more due to my playstyle than anything

For instance, none of my characters have ever used reach weapons, and I have never used some of the popular spells Ive read about in the forums (Enlarge person, grease, haste, invisibility, etc). I also have never tought my paladin exotic weapon proficency with Bastard Swords simply because I dont like how it looks when he makes one handed crits

And even though I got Scather, my paladin didnt use it (For some reason, I just dont like how it looks on my paladin). It just kinda sits there in my bag. And dont ask my why I have it, because I have no idea...

Of course, Im not really a hardcore DnD player. The only DnD game Ive ever played is ToEE and my grasp of the rules is vague at best. My method of playing is more than anything based on whims (such as not using Scather with my paladin). Stupid rules, yeah, but I still have fun myself

Failing that, you could always try using bad class matchups. Clerics are fairly good for a solo play, since they can tank well and are also got options for offensive casting. Ever tried doing a LG story with only a monk? Even with 18 in all stats, I still cant get past the opening. Of course, you dont have to be quite so extreme either. Or you could try the "joke" party of 5 female halfling bards

And yeah, point buy will also give you a challenge. Makes you miss those rolls where you got 17 in three different stats

 

Did you consider making a character with only one roll? I mean, start the game, choose new game, create new character, roll 1 and then see what you can make of that.
I did that with my last party four deaths so far because of random encounters at level 2. Traveling to much. I have to decide if I should simply reload (since I am out of money) or restart with new party build this way.

Granted, one of my guys have something like the following stats (not at home, can not check properly)

9, 12, 12, 8 13 9

Must be the lowest I have ever accidently gotten. I somehow like that but since even the stronger ones died because of a stupid barbarian and then ghast/ghouls I am consider a restart.

Making characters is the most fun part anyways

 

Ya shall always go for the "Iron Man" mode... But there are a a chance that ya got a good roll in this mode. Point buy system its a certain way to have some poor stats!

ToEE it's not an easy game. But people make it easy. Uber stats chars - like all 18 with a 25+ - max hit points, lots of craft +5 weapons... Those things arent supposed to be there in the original version of the game - I mean the table version, and the Vanilla version for extension - and makes a lot of difference in terms of balance.

I edit my stats. I use the same stats I give to my players to built they characters in my table games - 18, 16, 14, 12, 10 and 8 - becose the "normal" generation mode its very unfair for players. One shall get all stats over 14, and another player shall begin with something like the Gavial exemple (with maybe a 15 in place of one of the 9's, to make it "legal") and it makes players to keep asking the GM to roll again a poor stats result. As GM, what to do? Just let the unlucky player have a poor character - becose life its unfair - or let him try again with the dices?

Just give all the chars the same stats list - with a good 18, aye, why not? - and let their decisions to make good or not so good characters during the game. Same for my chars in ToEE. I build all of then with this same stats list. This makes good characters, but nothig really overpowered.

And Vageta, one final idea:
Dont use the top classes. Paladins, Druids and clerics. Use the "secound level" or even the "botton level" classes. A game with a solo Bard its a challenge, of course, but even with a Rogue its not so easy - try going in a mob with a rogue, even one of very high level! And a Barbarian will face some problems dealing with some monsters, like undeads and werewolves, without a spellcaster to help...

 

One of your problems is probably unintentional metagaming. For example, you pre-buff accordingly before the tough battles because you know they are coming. If you're really looking for a challenge, you may want to try to "roleplay", using only the info available to the character, not you. For example, there's no way you would know that there's an ambush at the bandit tower.

Another - use point-buy instead of roll. Makes the game a bit harder.

If you're playing fix-only game, don't raise the cap to 20. Vanilla TOEE was intended for max lvl 10. You'll feel the pain after you hit the cap.

Scather/Frag. are only effective if you build a character around them. Try different options! One of my favourite runs was with a party of a NE dwarven cleric and a bard. Try building characters for flavor, not just stats.

If you're playing NC, the way I usually "balance" the game for myself is do NC quests only, when available. That means Welkwood bog > Moathouse > Hickory > Arena > MH Respawn > Verbo progression with just a few stops along the way to get the appropriate story states. This keeps you up with the difficulty without over-leveling.

Be aware that because of XP distribution you're not necessarily making it harder by going at it with a smaller party/solo. You'll level a lot faster, and potentially wipe the floor with some of the mid-game enemies (hence your feeling of "too easy" at the brigand tower - they are indeed more difficult if you have a big party of low-level characters, while two fireballs or so clean them all out completely). On the other hand, you'll probably have lots more trouble with late-game enemies and especially massive fights like the few on Level 4, or enemies that are as strong or stronger than you (node bosses if you cap at 10, some Verbobonc quests if you cap at 20). So in a sense, running an 8-person party may be more challenging that going solo, especially if you're intent on keeping most of them alive.

 

Very eloquently put Ausdoerrt, agree completely with your recommendations.

I like to make my party as strong as possible, so as try to go through as many encounters as I can, making party preparations before combats with role-playing in mind, and resting realistically in regards to what would make sense from a role-playing perspective.

They ARE the heroes after all, so they need to be strong, smart, and well equipped - but i try to push them to survive multiple encounters, and retreat only if party members fall in combat to rest, or I'm entirely out of prepared spells. LOL or, ifi am just carrying too much loot. all of these make sense to me as times to retreat and rest ... and i limit myself to that.

 

You're right about the meta-gaming, though it just comes natural. I like my guys to be efficient and not take "wasted" feats and skills. Not because I'm trying to make the game too easy, it's just how my mind works when putting together characters. Dipping one cleric level is never a bad idea for the free turning and domain powers. I like to dip Rogue on first level to get lots of skill points and an extra SA dice, a barbarian dip adds rage and 40ft movement, etc.. It's hard to not want to dip, especially with a level cap. Cleric 1/Fighter 9 is always a better build than Fighter 10. 1 BAB loss is easily made up with domain powers, turning and the low level buffs...

Also I'm beginning to believe the game is actually easier with fewer party members. The way D&D levels scale, a level 5 character with appropriate equipment will destroy a party of level 1-2's due to the high saves, hps and BAB even though he's only a few levels above. It's just the way the game is designed. And since you level so much faster you're always ahead of the next encounter. True that pre-buffing makes it easier, though to be honest I get into the habit of buffing before I enter any new area so I was buffed legitimately. When I first went into the broken tower I figured something was going to happen so I was fully buffed and hasted. Second time obviously I knew it was coming. Since you're pretty much backed against the door when you enter, buffing during battle is difficult. You can't 5 foot step when you're cornered and around a lot of obstacles.

I'm beginning to think a happy medium is to simply have a smaller party. Maybe 2 to 3 people so you level slower than solo and still have to worry about party member death. In fact that was the hardest part of the full party, the pure mages would be the ones to usually die and keeping them alive sometimes was the most difficult part. My last party had 2 wizards and an archery rogue and I usually just kept them far out of battle and plucked away with range attacks and magic.

I'd probably just do multi-class on all guys instead of a fighter/warrior/mage party. Maybe a rogue/wiz, a cleric/fighter and monk/druid or something. And I think maybe I just won't use Frag or Scather at all since I see them as both way overpowering. Since they can't miss you can max power attack AND combat expertise and do so much damage and keep your AC high, it's truly just munchkin stuff. The first time I fought Hedrack it was a total devastation and I only lost one due to my own idiot mistake of not 5 foot stepping before casting a spell.

Anyways thanks for the suggestions. I wasn't implying the game was too easy in general, it's just that you can't scale difficulty so if you stay ahead of the curve through building a strong party and making good choices, it really isn't challenging anymore. It sucks to have so many spells and never use them because your fighters can rip through anything before those spells would even benefit. I really like the idea of having to use well thought out tactics like relying on moving silently and getting SA on your first attack, then winning initiative on 2nd round and getting your 2nd attack in for free to soften them up. My idea of going solo to rely on that didn't pan out as I had intended...

BTW last night I decided to start over and take the first roll that it gave me... but unfortunately I had two 17's and nothing less than a 13. So I rolled a few more times till I only had one 17, couple 15s, a 14, 13 and a 10. That was more balanced and definitely made the game harder. Also I multiclassed Cleric, to Rogue, to Fighter so my BAB was weak and had a harder time hitting more often. Then I went wizard 4, and it got even harder hehe.

 

Try a vanilla origninal with 5 pregens and Fruella. I got to level 4, no Hedrack fight tho, and never lost anybody. Play straight by the book like playing for the first time. It will test your playing skills.

 

Like I said, that's only true until you hit "le cap". Fighting Wilfrick team or the Slavers with one lvl20, or the Balor with one lvl10 is close to madness (Fragarach exploit aside, and still probably even then). Having fewer characters will only shift the difficulty curve, not make everything easier.

I'd say a "happy middle" is somewhere around 4-6 characters.

 

I always try to spice the game up with a background theme for my group. Right now I am gaming with a crusader group, theme Knights Templar. Originally I thought that would be able to finish the game with four paladins using only equipment available to crusaders. Then I learned it is quite impossible to finish the game without using any magical items (and most of the magical items that can be found in the game are items that were unknown during the Crusades, like bastard sword or plate mail) and since paladins are crappy crafters I decided to incorporate a cleric. Not much of a historical deviance, since Knights Templar often co-operated with Knights Hospitaller. But I am still using only equipment available to crusaders ie. martial and simple single hand weapons, chain mails, crossbows, long spears and shields. Also I will only use magic that could be attained via prayer such as prayer, bane, bless, lay on hands etc. And craft my items with passive traits such as +1 – +3, holy, keen edge, spell resistance etc. Of course all my PCs are lawful good and worship the same deity.

Next time I was planning to try a Berserkir party, northman as I am, with four barbarians wielding great axes and wearing hide armor (the word berserkr comes from the old norse words of “bear” and “shirt”) but since the barbarian rage is poorly implemented in ToEE (The Berserkir were notorious of their unwillingness/inability to make the difference between friend and foe during their berserker rage) I probably have to settle with a Viking/Varyag party. IE. Three barbarians each one specializing with one weapon/fighting style accessible to my ancestors, such as shield and long sword, longbow, great axe, war hammer and a battle axe etc. Reach weapons could not be fitted into a dragonship so they must be discarded. The ancient norse believed in magic and recognized that some of the their rarest weapons were crafted by gods and/or giants and thus wielded incomprehensible power, so I can incorporate any kind of magical items and weapons. But would they suffer the presence of a witch? No. A scholar like Snorri Sturluson who would convert their heroic deeds to an epic saga and aid them in a battle could be acceptable, so my crafter must be a bard.

Should I play as a solo I would probably choose to play with a theme of Conan the Barbarian: a barbarian with high strength and willpower, but who wears only light armor or no armor at all, uses hand to hand weapons and fears and loathes all things magical (except those with passive traits).

 

I do this a lot now.

1- One roll Characters
2- Dont craft
3- Perma Death NPC's
4- Don't pick same spell more then once..(I dont use sorc)
5- Max Monster HPs
6- Roll your own HPs
7- Only use what you find.
8- Play with no feats...I only did this once so far. I would just pick a totally useless feats. Gave the game a more 1st edition feel.
9- I even sometimes used a real dice to decide things...like which hall to go down or which text option to pick...just for randomness.