Lets talk about Lareth

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Ranth, Sep 30, 2010.

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  1. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    On the reactive moathouse, wouldn't Lareth and his guards travel to the Temple through the back door, and not back up through the MH? So how would they ever know the upper levels had been slaughtered? Also, the closest help they have are the gnolls in the tunnels, who are just looking for an excuse to leave, so if that area was empty upon Lareth's inspection, he would just think they abandoned their post.
     
  2. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    At first I thought that it might be too overwhelming - Lareth's men pounding at you and puncturing you with arrows, while Lareth casts various debilitating spells - however playtesting has convinced me that he should enter the fray no later than 3 casualties.
    He already wastes 1 round on casting Shield of Faith, and another round on just getting out of the room. By the third round most of his men are decimated.


    If the Lieutenant makes it, yeah...


    Actually, scout points don't work from within combat...
    Though I guess the guard at the back could have his standpoint changed so he joins the other guys if you intimidate the sergeant.

    Well, the script can include a test for his HPs.
    Though from my testing, the player will likely have to turn to his diary for the story...

    You have no idea... the engine basically flips me off :p
     
  3. Ranth

    Ranth Established Member

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    Sitra,

    Does he talk to you and give you the option to bring him into your group when he is low on health? I find that important because our modding goals, well mine, is to add to, and never detract from, vanilla.
     
  4. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    No, he just runs off
     

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  5. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Sitra, did you have any trouble getting a handle on him? I tried something like this long ago - set him some waypoints to physically walk out of his room if when you killed the guys in the hallway (logic behind that too dull to explain) - and I couldn't get those guards to find him in the 'vicinity'.
    The module explains this: Lareth is 'favoured' due to his precocious talents - lots of 18s - but he is still only 1 low-level operative among many, and there are more powerful folks in the region, like R&G who are 10th and 7th lvls in the module. Besides, add in the gnolls, bugbears, slime, his growing group of undead and a crayfish, and he's doing ok for himself.
    Thats always been the concern, but its never been seen as insurmountable (if I remember the discussions on this right), just something needing a lot of work and thought. And testing. I like what Sitra's done for starters though, simple and effective.

    Regarding the other troops (one of my concerns, since Lareth's dialogue can't easily be changed) I like the idea of them running off then turning up somewhere else. Piling into the Tower fight 3 rounds in from the door behind you, perhaps. Led by Zert, Turuko and Kobort, even?
     
  6. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    IMO, Lareth wouldn't be that quick to just shrug his shoulders. Besides, the gnoll and bugbear rooms aren't really that far away, and I think it would be assumed that both report to Lareth regularly.*

    Re the upper floor, I thought the bandits up there were independant and not aware of Lareth and Co. down below? But, I would think lareth would be very aware of them. Maybe he sends someone to sneak up once in a while and have a look around. Also, the ogre is technically one of Lareth's troops, and he would know who's coming and going. And aren't the undead used for Lareth's experiments or something like that? And don't forget the gnome prisoners.

    [edit]

    *not to mention the dead bodies. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2010
  7. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Had no problem there.
    The script is run off every guard's san_start_combat. Most of them are in range of Lareth.

    Maybe they should just wind up where Lareth does when you release him into the wild?
     
  8. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    Unless you ignore the Burne's scrolls exploit, there's no sense in scripting anything. The end result will be the same. The troops die, Lareth dies and the ambush guys die. Moathouse is cleared. Go tell Terjon and move on to Nulb. At least for good aligned parties.
     
  9. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    The bodies don't last long, don't you see all those bugs scurrying across the floor? Lareth just thinks they wimped out and left for greener dungeons. And there is a lot of rock cavern between them and his nice digs, I guess the lowly archers draw straws to check on the other troops, if the gnolls and bugbears don't eat him.
     
  10. mmonagle

    mmonagle Established Member

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    I'm actually one of those that does ignore the Burne scroll exploit. I just feel that it takes the fun out of the game. I for one would like to see Lareth do more and join his troops.

    I also appreciate the concern that is being taken for Lareth's dialogue as I do occasionally play an evil party just for something different. However, (I want to get up on a soapbox here) Lareth's dialogue that leads him to joining an evil party is dumb. I say that because even if you are evil and of the same mindset, he will still lead you into an ambush. I know that it would go against what was done with vanilla but Lareth (and the evil slanted campaign) would benefit from a change here. For someone of his talents to simply lead an evil party with a lot of potential to their deaths rather than putting them to work for him, just doesn't make sense.

    I realize that this would take some scripting to pull off but I just don't like the way that just because it was in vanilla means it cannot be touched. Lareth has so much more potential and the evil campaign would benefit too.
     
  11. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    -didn't read the thread- But here's my take on this:

    IMHO, Lareth encounter should be left as before, EXCEPT that he should join in on the combat if you choose to start it. On the other hand, the Lieutenant should have a slightly modified dialogue that allows you to resolve peacefully and talk to Lareth w/o battle - if you have the necessary speech skill and/or alignment.

    The "Lareth's Diary" already takes care of that, right?
     
  12. Ranth

    Ranth Established Member

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    The diary opens up the temple, but it does not give you the chance to have Lareth in your party. If you cant get Lareth in your party, you cant save him from Burne, and you cant get him as a vendor.

    I applaud Sitra's modifications but I think Lareth should stop combat and plead for his life if his health gets too low so you can get him in party if you desire. If the rest of his guards turn on their former master for betraying them, so be it. That will allow them to die and get the respawn accessible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2010
  13. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Oh, if that's the plotline in question... Frankly though I don't really see a point for a non-evil party to want Lareth anyway, but I guess you shouldn't take that option away. I guess simply not messing with his usual dialogue initiation upon "badly wounded" status would do the trick. I can only imagine how hard it'd be to actually keep him alive in that battle though. That's why I think there should be a diplomatic option of getting him as well for those who really really want him - maybe as a part of your "evil party" alternative story progression.

    As for the troops - can't he just "send them off" to somewhere? Maybe a RE with remnants of Lareth's band later on in the game would be fun. Sort of like with the gnolls.
     
  14. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    I did a Lawful Evil thing a couple of years a go and I redid Lareth's dlg file and he stayed in the party until the Hedrack fight. Him and Smigmal Redhand are pretty tough. They work for Lolth and don't have much use use for Iuz/Zuggtmoy. Lolth and Zuggtmoy aren't the best of friends. Lareth is there to build a power base for Lolth, but even with his talents it's not quite good enough. However, with some dlg editing, scripting and some protos, Lareth can become High Priest in the name of Lolth.
     
  15. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Burne has had al those scrolls since vanilla. The same principal could be applied to any lower level battle, really: since it's possible to have scrolls of higher level spells, there's no point in modding anything?

    Co8 has always operated under the 'first do no harm' code (although we have wandered rather far afield from that at times), and the basic guiding principal is this: ToEE is a D&D module, and Troika is basically the DM. It is not our job to try to re-interpret what Troika may have meant or intended by this or that. It is our job to fix stuff that is broken and to make things compliant with the 3.5 rules where they aren't. We also feel that we are liberty to 'improve' upon things where they are weak, but not to the point that the game is fundamentally changed. Thus, there are no spaceships in Hommlet just because someone thinks that might be a cool idea.

    We also have to bear in mind that the people who actively post here at Co8 are a somewhat small minority of players. Getting approval from even 50 people is by no means a mandate when it comes to altering this stuff, because the other 2500 people who play the mod might not be in lockstep with everybody here, and they may well flay us for it on other boards. Therefore our responsibility to ToEE has to be based on principal and not popularity or consensus at Co8.org alone. And the safest approach in that regard is always to not fiddle with any vanilla content too severely.

    New content is another story, and the fact that we have a platform in place now to deliver modpacks that do or do not contain said new content opens up the freedom to mod even more. In the case of NC, players don't have to come into contact with it if they aren't interested, because they can play the standard mod. However, if the line between the vanilla content and new content becomes blurred, those players are going to be confronted by our alterations whether they choose standard or not. e.g., if we change Lareth to be a startrooper with a laser rifle, well, Lareth is a part of the vanilla module and the standard modpack, so everybody is going to have to endure that whether they like it or not. That's why the non-interferance principal is so important. It maintains the integrity of both ToEE and Co8.
     
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