Lets talk about Lareth

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Ranth, Sep 30, 2010.

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  1. Ranth

    Ranth Established Member

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    One of the mod ideas that has been thrown around is having Lareth join the barracks fight. In 'realistic' terms, it makes sense. He is far too easy to kill on his own. Adding him to the barracks encounter would make that fight even more difficult, but hopefully more enjoyable. I know I do that fight around level 3-4, so it must be done without fireball, which makes it hard.

    Despite the advantages of having Lareth join the fight, there are several inherent problems, or issues, I see with it. I would like to list the issues I see below in hopes that we can have a discussion of possible work arounds.

    1. Lareth would not be able to give his speech about being beautiful if he charges into ongoing combat. This also means losing the opportunity to question him a bit. Should we have him come out before combat (during dialogue with the lieutenant)? If not, then are you ok with him charging in after a round or two of combat and in the process resetting the combat order?
    2. Normally, Lareth stops combat and pleads for his life. Should we allow to still occur? If so, can he still join your group and take you to the Temple? If so, what happens to the guards still alive? Do they leave the moathouse (allowing the respawn to happen eventually).
    3. Would you still want him to summon spiders in combat?
    4. What would you think of Lareth not starting in his room, but being in the barracks in the first place?

    My biggest fear is we mod this cool addition to the fight, but in the end we mess up a plot line/quest or something because we removed his dialogue.
     
  2. cezmail

    cezmail Gorboth's Rider

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    No answers just yet with most of what you posted Ranth, but one idea would be to have Lareth start in the barracks, but have him, not the lieutenant start the conversations, so that you can still have him give his speech and pleas. Then if he joins you then his troops might turn on you and him as he has betrayed them.
     
  3. Necroticpus

    Necroticpus Cthulhu Ftaghn!

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    Almost every time I encounter him, I don't even talk to him. I just kill him because someone looking all pretty and natureboy like him is not going to be a prisoner so he must be evil. Most times he doesn't even get to beg for his life because he's already dead and when I get to the broken tower, all of the brigands and witches and whatnot, still activate the "Wait! I didn't kill Lareth!" dialog.

    One thing though. If Lareth is supposed to be favored by Lolth, who sends out many drow assassins to kill you after the end game, why is he such a wuss and why is he hanging around the moathouse with a group of peon humans?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
  4. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    1. I don't mind losing his introductory speech. Not much information in there anyway, other than his name.
      As for bringing him out before combat starts, I am against. The point is to cause him to come outside if he hears the ruckus.
      Likewise for interrupting combat to give his speech. He'll do that anyway, when he is wounded.
    2. Well, there's the Feldrin fight as a precedent.

      To make it seem less odd, we can condition him going out with troop casualties exceeding a certain level.

      I.e. Seleucas enters the fighting thinking he can easily do away with the intruders himself. Same for Larth - "oh, another band of adventurers [yawn] I'll let Seleucas deal with them".

      But after you kill 50% or so of the guys there, things start to look grim, and one of the Guardsmen calls out: "Lareth, we're getting trounced here! Help!"

      Then, when he interrupts the fight, presumably there will be much fewer troops left (if at all). Remaining ones could even join the party as well. The rest will be dispersed, possibly joining the Temple Tower Brigands.
    3. Well, the purpose of those spiders was to provide Lareth with some backup since you were battling him solo.
      I guess that won't be needed if he has his men around - unless you killed all of them by the time he breaks up the fight.
      So the scripting should check for # of living troops on his side:
      If less than 3 - summon spiders, else - continue as usual.
    4. Nah, the point was him going out to his men if he hears a ruckus going on.

      Although, it brings up the issue of Reactive behavior. Surely Lareth would notice the upper portion of his dungeon getting slaughtered, if the party takes a break from the dungeon crawl?

      I think a reasonable route to take is to move the soldiers in the corridor back to the Lieutenant area. At least the sergeant and the one at the end of the corridor (keeping a couple at the doorway to replace the sergeant).


    Regarding technicalities, it seems that for the purpose of inviting him into the fight, it's sufficient to use the
    Code:
    lareth.attack(game.leader)
    
    command.

    Also, his AI should be tweaked a little to prevent him from casting Sound Burst while in his room, without LOS on the party.

    By the way, one of the neat things about this is that he has a Ring of Freedom of movement, which should render him immune to Web / Entangle.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
  5. Ranth

    Ranth Established Member

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    My problem with him charging the PC's is that we need to agree if he should start dialogue when he does or not. I would lean to yes, so that PC's can talk to him and have more info, and get him into the party. However, that does restart combat and the combat order.

    If Lareth does join the party, should we have him help us kill his guards, or have his guards run off?
     
  6. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    Burne's scroll inventory ruins this and the ambush. Fireball, cone of cold, ice storm available in a 1st level dungeon is way over. One cone of cold and the Lt. and troops are mostly dead. I would continue to use the scroll exploit and just get rid of Lareth.
     
  7. mmonagle

    mmonagle Established Member

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    While we are at it, there are 3 guards and a sergeant in the hallway just before the lieutenant and the main group. These 4 do not call for help or get the main group involved in their combat either. Sometimes, I can be finishing this smaller group off and even see members of the larger group. It would be good if one of them went for help by stepping into the larger area or called out for assistance. Otherwise it is just as silly as Lareth actions.

    If this smaller group did something, it would even cut off the scroll exploit as a party would not be able to apply it before the main group was aware of an assault.
     
  8. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    I have never taken Lareth in the party, how does that affect the ambush outside? Can his remaining soldiers join the ambush?
     
  9. Ranth

    Ranth Established Member

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    The outside ambush does not occur. He can lead you to the temple, and he ambushes you there. Or you can take him with you around the world.
     
  10. cezmail

    cezmail Gorboth's Rider

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    Yep, though be prepared for some merchants not to want to deal with you. You can play it out and have him become a merchant in the bandit tower at the Temple, but I am not sure it is worth it. It can piss off Burne, though you can later kill off Lareth and the bandits if you want a tougher battle when you do waste his pretty face.
     
  11. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    The last archer in the hallway does step in the big room sometimes and triggers the big fight. If a npc gets close to the doorway the fight will trigger, but the wizard still can use fireball and icestorm. The fight ends the same no matter exactly how it starts.
     
  12. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Regarding the missing info, we could have Lareth shout it out via floats, ala classical talkative villains.

    Round 1 - You have earned my wrath!
    Round 2 - As you will die soon anyway, I will tell you a little of what you have stumbled upon.
    Round 3 - This place is but an outpost for the Temple of Elemental Evil reborn.
    Round 4 - Here, I rebuild our forces and gather loot for the full restoration!
    Round 5 - Soon the Temple will be fully operational once again.
    Round 6 - I shall ride to victory in the service of Lolth as her most favored priest!

    Evil parties who wish to join will have to have a good talker anyway, who'll get to Lareth the usual way. Could perhaps use some tweaking, e.g. a boost for CE parties of Barbarians or such, but otherwise I think it fits.

    Anyway, I've been tinkering with the scripting.
    Attached are images from what I've got so far.
    I gotta say, it's been quite a bitch - scripts seem to randomly fail to execute for no explicable reason, I had to triple proof many of them!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
  13. cezmail

    cezmail Gorboth's Rider

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    WOW, this looks really cool Sitra and I think the floating text idea is a good one. My appreciation for your ability to script in way out there. Not sure if others will like it, but I think it is a nice compromise with what others have talked about.
     
  14. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Because he's there to function as a plot device for third level parties.

    The only concern I have here is that I think players would find the Lareth troops battle + Lareth very challenging (not to mention sensible), but a battle with Lareth and only half of his troops might not be as fun. Maybe he could still summon the spiders though.

    I have the inverse concern here - the tower battle is probably one of the toughest in the game, so adding to it might overwhelm some players. Maybe they could be found hanging about the top level of the temple (usually empty) or something like that, waiting for orders. Or they could turn into a rogue wandering gang for a RE.

    Yes - Reactive Moathouse! :)

    That could easily be solved by giving one of them scout points so he runs off to alert the rest when trouble starts.

    imo that has the potential to be a bit clunky, like if for example Lareth just got critted for 30 hp, he probably wouldn't be quite as worried about explaining his operation. ;) Still, if that's the tradeoff to get both his dialog and a sensible scenario, it would be worth it.

    :angry: Don't worry, they'll work the next time. But then not after that. But then they may start working again later. ;)

    This all looks very encouraging, everybody ... keep it up. :)
     
  15. darkfeld01

    darkfeld01 Ancient Lurker

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    if you want him to stand back and monolouge would it be possible to have him cast prot. from arrows on himself and stand back, that aught to prolong his life a few rounds.

    Also if we still want to deal with his conversation he would have at low hp, why not have him retreat back to his room if either most of his guards are dead or he is low hp. That way we would still have to pretty much kill them all off before he would join us.
     
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