How much can the Druid's Wildshape be modified?

I assume that all that can be done with Wildshape has been done.

However, seeing Allyx's Druid's Vestments leads me to believe that there is room for alternate functions even if the core function is untouchable. Specifically, can extra abilities be added to a wildshaped druid?

I have some ideas for ways to offset the weaknesses of the wildshape, in order to make the forms more useful. Even if others don't think more should be added to the official mod, I'm wondering how much I might be able to add for my own games. I love playing druids and am disappointed that wildshapes are relatively useless.

 

Just as a quick reply, I think that to add more abilities would require further .dll hacking. Not sure what the current situation with .dll hackery is but I'd imagine that it would depend upon you interesting a modder who is capable enough to do it.

 

Just out of curiosity - what is it about wild shapes that is sub-par?

granted, i've never made much use of them myself, but i've never tried to build a druid around the ability either.

I've made a 'tree-hugger' party consisting of

Fighter/Druid
Rogue/Ranger
Ranger
Druid
Druid

and i've been leveling it up (wild shape wont be useful till 8 or so tho i assume) - also to test the druid's ability as a support caster (as opposed to summon-bot).

is the problem a toee specific thing? or a general d&d thing?

summon animal spam makes some fights ridiculously easy, who needs fireball/haste

 

I think the problem is that wildshape's have rules compliant stats where as alot of PC has uber stats in compared with a pnp game, this means that in wildshape your character is totally gimped with less AC, HP and an inablity to cast spells and use (uber) weapons.

btw I didn some looking into wildshape a while back trying to see how it worked so we might've been able to do a polymorph spell but its to deep in the dll for me to do anything about.

 

i thought that wizards had basically said that polymorph was a mistake, and people shouldnt use it

 

well more specificly I was thinking of baleful polymorph . I don't really see a problem with either spell, in different myths and legends sorcerers and wizards have been using spells with similar effects for thousands of years.

 

PnP Polymorph is incredibly useful. I'm in agreement that here, it wouldn't be nearly so. BTW, a favorite Polymorph Other tactic is to make the target a trout. Death follows in a couple of rounds unless someone can put you in some water somehow. I used 'goldfish' often enough until someone discovered that canteens were useful for saving allies. Still, it takes two party members out of combat if the target fails their save.

 

While I myself don't have uber stats as Cujo mentions (and in fact enjoy the hefty stat increases I get on changing), nonetheless druids are still weakened by wildshaping. This affects almost every combat area.

A typical mid-level druid in toee could have an AC of 23:

10 .... base
+8 ... troll bone/dragonhide
+1 ... max dex with armor
+4 ... large wooden shield

whereas the AC for wolf is 14 (+2 natural, +2 dex), and only 16 for bear (+5 natural, +1 dex). Barkskin can raise this, but can also raise your normal form's AC too. Plus, by the rules, the natural AC bonus Barkskin provides shouldn't stack with the natural armor from your forms, meaning Barkskin really only increases the disparity in ACs. So, you're going to take a big AC penalty when you wildshape.

Weapons can do much more damage than the pitiful 1d3 of a beast's claw attack. Yes, you can add in STR with your claw, but STR also counts for your weapon, plus the magic bonus, plus extra damage such as shocking or holy, plus greater threat from keen. So, your physical attacks are going to do less damage.

By 'shaping, you lose access to all the items in your pack. You can't use any of the magic items in your pack, such as scrolls, nor can you swap out items during combat, thus yielding less flexibility of combat tactics.

You lose access to your most powerful class strength, your spells. Yes, you can regain them with a feat, but you should only take that if you plan on spending a lot of time wildshaped, and who would want to given the great limitations of the forms? This is especially true with the next item on our list, healing.

No matter what protections you have, you will eventually take damage. A wounded druid can heal herself with potions, scrolls, items, or spells. A wildshaped druid has access to none of these. She might be healed by another in the party but I don't believe class abilities should be dependent upon the presence/powers of others, or require a feat to be useful. This would mean you would have to have another healer in the party, and if you have another healer, why bother with having a druid in the first place?

By wildshaping, a druid is going to have lower AC (which means she'll be hit much more often and take many more criticals), cause less damage (losing weapons' special powers), be less flexible in combat (by losing versatility), lose her spells and items, and be unable to heal herself.

The only gain my druid gets are stat boosts, and for those gamers who have uber stats, not even that. I believe the main problems lie in D&D itself, and I have my own house rules to address that, but I can think of some ways that they can be addressed in toee.

More than anything else, the major problem with wildshapes will be survivability. With your low AC you're going to be hit all the time for lots of damage. I think a regeneration ability would help here very nicely. If the wildforms could gain the 5 hp regeneration ability that the Periapt of Wound Closure provides, I think this would fix a lot. Or, if you don't agree, you could do something like DR 10/- . The problem with the latter though is that it might make the druid too powerful. And it also won't address the damage that druids will take from non-weapon sources. The regeneration ability will help the druid heal over time while still leaving her vulnerable to death in combat.

A minor consideration might be giving wildforms the weapon finesse (natural) feat, allowing druids to add their dex to their hit chance, a feat I believe most monsters have when using natural attacks. This would certainly make the Legendary Rat form useful, a form with high dex.

Zeb said it requires dll hacking, which sounds like I would need major computer skills to accomplish, something I don't have. If however it isn't all that hard, perhaps somebody could help me do this.

 

ok, tested a lil in toee, and did some reasearch

wizard's article discussing polymorph errata:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a

thread summing up polymorph errata succinctly - showing changed areas clearly:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589497
^^
strangely enough im pretty sure that this means that when you wildshape, your hitpoints should stay exactly the same, so the con bonuses have been nerfed it seems... but im going to disagree with you about the versatility factor aeroldoth read on for my reasoning




anyway... i hope i've interpreted the rules (and errata) correctly.





currently there's only wildshapes up to 10th level the last one you get being a giant snake.

To be honest, there could be a lot more powerful choices available for druids to use - if we could only implement the new models, and have one of the studious dll hackers dive in

at level 5 you currently get only one form

wolf:

str 13
dex 15
con 15

from the errata thread, you're meant to get the (Ex) abilities - but i've never seen regular wolves make free safe trip attempts on a succesful bite attack in ToEE, much less wildshaped ones.






by the rules these should also be available at level 5:

wolverine:

str 14
dex 15
con 19

EX - Rage +4 str/con -2AC, triggered by taking damage.

Boar:

speed 40

str 15
dex 10
con 17

EX - Ferocity, keeps fighting normally until death (-10hp)

Cheetah:

3 attacks, speed 50

str 16
dex 19
con 15

Ex - Trip (As wolf), sprint

Crocodile:

speed 20

str 19
dex 12
con 17

Ex: Improved Grab (ok, thats a bit of a doozy for implementing im sure)

Leopard

3 attacks, speed 40

str 16
dex 19
con 15

Ex: Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake

Black Bear

3 attacks, speed 40

str 19
dex 13
con 15

Medium Viper

speed 20, poison

str 8
dex 17
con 11

... all at level 5

i mean, yes, you only get to use wildshape once per day, but thats a LOT of options - 3 attacks on a charge at level 5 is arguably a good trade off for a lack of fighter feats, and sub-par AC (not to mention the ability to run away and cast heal/support spells)

At level 8 you should be able to use dire wolf, brown bear, lion, dire lion, tiger, dire boar, polar bear & rhinoceros, among others.

from 10 onwards, the wildshape really seems to expand into varied options (havent even included plant options here)

12 Dire bear

16 Dire Tiger, Triceratops, Elementals (small-large)

18 Dire Polar Bear, Tyrannosaurus

20 Huge Elementals


anyway, i'm being rather long-winded, so i'll shut up - but it seems that there really is a lack of wild-shape love for ToEE druids though

 

oh, and lets not forget taking a level of monk for the AC boost heehee

 

They are my suggestions.

However, as can be seen from the links that Vampiricpuppy kindly provides, there is debate over what should and should not be included in Wildshapes, including "form" features, such as weapon finesse. The designers themselves cannot seem to establish a clear, balanced set of rules, as they keep changing things again and again. Shapechanging magic is confusing and exploitable, and no simple standard has yet been defined.

The reasons for my suggestion(s) are based, as my rule changes always are, on balance. I believe that wildforms in toee are too weak to be useful, and so, they aren't used. How many here routinely use Wildshape? I would say few, if any. I feel that if any feature of a game isn't used, then the rules regarding it should be changed so players no longer avoid it.

I believe the toee wildforms need to be improved to make them viable. Given what we have with toee, its rules, and what can be changed, I think the regeneration ability is the most appropriate, simple, and balanced.

In 1st edition, when the toee module came out, druids were healed a fair amount on changing, 10-60% of any damage already sustained. In D&D 3.5 on changing, druids gain hp as if having rested for a night.

The healing aspect on changing has always been there but, as I said, since 'shaped druids are unable to heal themselves and their lower AC means they are gonna take a heavy beating, I think the regeneration ability is necessary to ensure druids aren't killed in the first few rounds of combat.

What I may do is simply console myself a periapt of wound closure, and then just make sure I don it every time I want to wildshape. This forces me to empty my neck slot though, so it is a clumsy solution.

 

Yes, druids aren't supposed to gain extra hps from forms with higher con. However, as discussion in the links you provide show, that makes more problems than it solves. IMO, it makes MUCH more sense to apply con modifiers, causing your hp to go up or down accordingly. The designers erred here.

Also, druids don't gain the Extraordinary abilities of their forms, only extraordinary attacks, most of which aren't implemented in toee in any case.

The versatility I was referring to were the options a druid has in humanoid form vs. animal form. During combat, you can un/equip weapons and shields, allowing you to use a bow, reach, or combat weapon when you want. You have access to all your scrolls (you do have scribe scroll right?) and all the magics they allow. You can give/take items with other players, pickup/drop items, and generally muck about with not only all the items you have, but all the items the whole party has. You can even change armor/clothes/jewelery when not in combat. When you are wildshaped, you cannot do any of these things.

Here are just some examples of tactical flexibility:

Grab your heavy shield and go full defense near a strong foe so your rogue can flank it.
Switch weapons: Use clubs for skellys, scimitars for crit range, bows for rear action.
Cast spells or swap out for summons when combat turns against you.
Call more summons with items such as fungus figurine, bag of tricks, etc.
Use scrolls for those rare situations such as charm animal
Give your stack of healing potions to somebody who's run out.
Drop items to lower encumbrance and gain speed.

Wildshaped toee druids have less options than their humanoid forms, and this makes them less powerful. The Wildshape ability lasts for hours but has finite uses per day. How can a druid stay that way when they just lost 90% of their hp in the first four rounds of combat?

The list of forms you give are indeed quite useful... for a pnp druid. My suggestions, as I said, are based on the reality of the toee druid. Given what the toee druid has now, and the abilities of the toee wildshapes, I think that a toee druid is not going to find much use in wildshaping. It would be very nice if toee druids had all the options you list, but they don't. As such, I stand by my suggestion.