How do spontaneous casters swap spells at level time?

As the title says: How do spontaneous casters swap spells at level time?

EDIT
On my Sor4/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge1, when I gained a Sor level (so I effectively was a Sor6), I could swap level 1 spells but not level 2 spells, though level 2 spells weren't the highest level Sor spells I could cast. Level 3 spells were. When I leveled in Mystic Theurge, I couldn't swap any spells, even though my casting was progressed by the same amount on my Sor side. (This bug likely applies to all PrCs that advance casting.)

Original Post
I saw nothing in the UI to allow me to swap spells, and trying to replace a spell by dragging it from the spells to learn list onto the spells known area to replace a spell I know hasn't worked.

Thankee!

 

This is not currently implemented in ToEE ... for any spontaneous class.

 

My revised top post explains the disparity between swapping spells at Sor level time and at PrC-that-advances-Sor-casting level time.

 

@Endarire In ToEE pure sorcerers, bards and favored souls can all swap-out spells as per RAW.

But see the following paragraph from the Mystic Theurge class:

Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. For example, a 3rd-level cleric/3rd-level wizard who takes a level in mystic theurge has the same access to spells as a 4th-level cleric and a 4th-level wizard. But he continues to turn undead as a 3rdlevel cleric, and his wizard familiar won’t gain any new abilities. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Surely you would agree that the ability to swap out spells qualified as any other benefit?

 

Hmmm. Maybe sorc and bard do have the swap for the base class. Perhaps I missed the correct srd levels when trying these pure classes some time ago. The online SRD does specify certain swap levels for bards (every 3rd after 5th) and sorcs (even levels after 4). I unsuccessfully tried a bard swap a while ago, but it may have been at the wrong level.

Silly me. Had I read this more carefully...obviously this shows that the swap is in play for pure classes. SRD also states that swap must be at least 2 levels below max spell lvl known. I mention SRD a lot because iirc the game/modders were fairly dedicated to the base rules .

 

This is a pretty questionable argument.

For instance, that text is in the "Spells" section of the Sorcerer description, which is describing how their "spells known" and "spells per day" work, and it is described as learning a new spell, while losing the old one.

By contrast, the Wizard's learning new spells each level is in a separate section ("Spellbook"), which leads people to argue that it should not be a benefit of a Mystic Theurge level. And Pathfinder actually made this ruling explicit. But, the TemplePlus implementation actually gives this benefit to Wizard theurges.

But, my point isn't that Wizards shouldn't get that benefit. My point is that the "RAW" that people often like to go on about is fiction. Because the written text is English, it requires interpretation in many/most cases, and that is best done with some consideration about not pointlessly penalizing or over-powering things. Mystic Theurges are already not very good, and Sorcerer-based ones are even worse than most people talk about (because Sorcerers are further behind in spellcasting). Is it really best to further penalize them by not allowing this aspect of their spells known feature?

If it's difficult to implement, that's another matter. The text does not definitively say that it should not be implemented, though.

 

You are quite right about Wizard theurges adding spells to their spellbook on level-up and the ToEE Mystic Theurge was originally implemented without it. I can recall dragging Spugnoir around providing access to spells such as Stoneskin via scroll transfer. The general opinion was that this limitation made Wizard Theurges unplayable in ToEE.

 

Yeah, I'm not too surprised. It seems like a ruling that would only work if the DM is generous about opportunities for learning spells apart from leveling up, and ToEE isn't going to adapt like that.

Not being able to switch out spells isn't going to render Sorcerers unplayable, certainly. But it doesn't seem like there's a particularly strong game mechanics reason for imposing that annoyance.

Edit: for reference, the spell swapping is specifically disabled on non-sorcerer level-ups in the script. However, it mentions that it prevents "headache," so it's not clear that just eliminating that check would result in everything work correctly.

 

As previously mentioned, the casting progressing PrCs normally advance casting but not other features like familiar advancement, turn undead advancement, and animal companion advancement.

And continuing with Pathfinder's ruling, a spontaneous caster who takes a PrC level that advances his casting gets to swap spells if he's normally be able to do so at that level.

And and the 3.5 Master Specialist PrC specifically grants Wizards (and by extension all spellbook users) new spells known at PrC level up time. (See the Expanded Spellbook feature.)

And and and the 3.5 Sorcerer puts spell swapping in the Spells section.

In short, we request that you, @Sitra Achara, implementer of these PrCs give us the option to swap spontaneous spells at levels where casting is increased. If it's considered a house rule, so be it. I'd rather have that option which is likely RAW and more pleasant to the spontaneous casters.

Thankee!

 

It's fair enough to request such a feature, but...for me personally this has never been a big deal.

Both Baldur's gate (~version 2 rules) and Icewind dale 2 (which mostly did 3.5 rules) sorcs never had the swap feature and required some planning and experimentation.

I was pretty happy to see prcs added and spell corrections, as it was. It's amazing that the game works as well as it does, thanks to the hard work of the modders.

Also, Iirc there is a console command to add spells to a PC (something-> spell_known_add) and likely a remove spell command.

 

There are console commands to add and remove spells known, but this can get... complex.

I've played Pathfinder: Kingmaker with mods and being able to swap spells known (or just extra spells known to compensate) has been a wonderful experience!

 

FYI, I tried just removing the check that disables the switching in e.g. class016_sorcerer.py, and it seems to work fine. I tested to make sure that the swapping for Favored Soul doesn't enable swapping for Sorcerer or vice versa. I'm not sure what else would be broken.

If you want to manually override it, it's on line 190 of the sorcerer script and line 211 of the favored soul script.

 

@dolio
Thankee! Bards should have this too!