Homlet is very very bugged

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by taltamir, Apr 26, 2010.

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  1. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    In my last several games homlet broke.
    My lone elf conjurer? it broke.
    My CG party? it broke.
    My NE party? it broke.

    I have noticed that the breaking is primarily centered around the inn...
    1. Going out of the inn will occasionally teleport me to a random map, then crash. (not the same map every time it happens).
    2. The more often you enter the inn, exit the inn, or sleep in the inn, the worse it gets.
    3. Visiting homlet in general doesn't seem to be a problem, neither is travel via worldmap from one side of homlet to another, but I THINK the quicktravel might contribute, it is hard to be sure.

    The reasons I know it is the inn is because I have had a save where I could run around doing anything I want in homlet and abroad... but if i go into the inn, sleep once, and then come out homlet is hard frozen.
    Although, I had another case where leaving homlet then coming back did it without involving the inn...

    Symptoms:
    1. Stutter - stutter means that you give an order, ex: a move command, and your guys cancel it... as it worsen it will be canceled more and more quickly until it cancels as soon as you give it... sometimes solveable by leaving and coming back.
    2. Hard freeze - all animation in homlet are frozen, including your party. Move commands are not registered combat does nothing... basically nothing you do cause anything to move in homlet, it is frozen... you CAN however open the world map and travel out of homlet and the rest of the world is perfectly fine and dandy. But if you ever go back to homlet (at any of the three locations) it will be still hard frozen. I have just shifted all my trading to nulb to finish such games.
    3. Random inn teleport and crash on transitions.
    4. I think it MIGHT also be related to having modified the toee.cfg to be 1680x1050 resolution...
    5. I think it MIGHT also be related to rapidly going in and out of the inn (aka, go in, hit r and rest before all scripts complete, then click the exit button, again, before all scripts complete)
    6. I think saving in homlet (or the inn) also contributes... I have auto save off... and btw, in my last game I used regular saves exclusively (and no a single quick save) and it broke faster then ever before!

    While such a thing is probably an engine issue, I believe it can be minimized by minimizing rest and area transitions in homlet. As it takes time (and a LOT of area transitions and rests) to trigger, usually only if you come back an obscene amount of times to trade every little item, or grind... While I doubt its fixable by co8, its effects can be mitigated by reducing the need to rest and change areas in homlet...

    Ideas to reduce rest and area transitions in homlet:
    1. Make eyeglasses work from inventory: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8035
    2. Once the inn quest has been completed, allow rest ANYWHERE in homlet instead of requiring that the player enter the inn... this will save area transitions to the inn, the most bugged out area. And will also make it less tedious for players to rest in homlet. It can be assumed that the players ran back to the inn and rested there.
    3. I forgot my other ideas after all that writing. But I will edit them in when I recall them :p
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    No doubt.

    How bout SLOW DOWN? How bout DON'T HIT 'R' SO QUICK YOU BREAK THINGS? If you're seriously breaking your own games by going in and out of buildings so fast your computer can't keep up, please don't ask us to mod a fix. Buy a better computer.

    Your other comments (freezes etc around the inn) have been reported before and are an ongoing issue, thanks for the feedback.
     
  3. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    First, it has nothing to do with the speed of the computer, my computer is very fast.

    Second, I have slowed down, I now wait at least five seconds after everything is "loaded" so to speak before doing anything. This has not solved my issue in newer games. And I merely SUSPECT it might have contributed to it in earlier games.

    Third, I am not asking you to fix my game, I am suggesting changes that will help everyone. As you yourself said the inn is known to be bugged, and the changes I suggested are both simple.

    Fourth, I made two suggested fixes... one of which I personally created and uploaded for people to use already. I am still teaching myself the ropes of nodding, as soon as I know how to I will make the second change and also post it. If someone who already knows how to is willing to implement it, well, great. Also, it would be great if I could convince everyone of the benefit of integrating it into co8 package.

    The idea behind my post isn't to whine or demand fixes. It is to:
    1. Help clarify exactly what is causing it. I have listed POTENTIAL causes that I THINK might be related to the issue, and hoped people could correct me if it is already known.
    2. Create a thread where this specific issue can be discussed and information disseminated about it.
    3. Reach a consensus that this is a problem, and that as a design decision new content should minimize area transitions within homlet and the inn in particular as much as possible to avoid or at least mitigate its otherwise guaranteed corruption.

    I am sorry if the way I phrased the issue seemed whiny and demanding, that was not my intent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  4. Spider Dwarf

    Spider Dwarf Spider

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    Having a computer that could only have been dreamed of when the game was first released I don't think the problem lies in the computer speed. Though granted, this could impact the ToEE engine if the computer was too slow. But as Taltamir so kindly pointed out he has been allowing a decent amount of time to elapse.

    I think the culprit most likely lies in his screen resolution. I did a test. In between startign and finishing the Mouthouse some time has elapsed. I had finished all but the human guards and Lareth. During this time I was going around and finishing the various quests in Hommlet plus some time spent in the world to pick up XP. Each time upon returning to Hommlet the screen / movement would get real jerky. As an experiment I dropped from the maximum resolution in game (1024...) to 800 X 600. The jerkiness almost totally disappeared.

    Seeing as how he is driving the engine to 1680dpi (something only dreamed of when the program was created) I would offer that it is the interaction between the video card, the computer, and the ToEE engine. The alignment of the party should not matter as Hommlet should be party alignment neutral early on. It is only when the engine needs to determine "shall I attack the party or not?" that the engine starts to stress itself.

    Just my 2CP worth.
     
  5. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Yeah, manually changing the toee.cfg is fine for individualising your game but obviously it runs the risk of introducing bugs, and the screen resolution is a known area this could happen.

    I absolutely, positively 100% guarantee this has nothing to do with what slot the eyeglasses inhabit.
     
  6. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    This resolution is considered to be working well:
    http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5629

    So unless the sticky by Gaear is wrong, then this isn't the problem... And if it is, that sticky needs to be updated to list 1680x1050 as problematic.

    furthermore, while I have noticed jerkiness at this resolution (acceptable) and another issue where you must position the screen so that the "cast only on those X targets" is on an explored region for a spell with more targets then you have targets (the green button appearing above the head of the caster)...
    However, it is only homlet that is breaking
    furthermore, you said yourself it is a known issue for the homlet inn, yet now you blame it on my choice of resolution? Is it the resolution for everyone else experiencing it?

    Also, I have tried 800x600 resolution with the "just before" save where the next time I rest in the inn the game breaks, and it broke in that resolution as well.

    Finally, just because its a custom resolution (which is actually the standard for anyone who wants to play TOEE on a widescreen without having it distorted and I will bet most people use it) doesn't mean that a major bug that can be addressed SHOULDN'T be addressed. (and that is taking the huge assumption that it is in any way shape or form related to the resolution.)

    Look, I never said that the slot the eyeglasses use DIRECTLY causes the issue, I said that the slot they use causes you to perform more area transitions and rests in hommlet, which eventually triggers the bugs.
    By switching them to slotless I have reduced the amount of area transitions and rests I perform in homlet inn by 2/3...
    it is also amazingly relaxing not having to fiddle with those and your chosen helmet anymore!
    Just wear a headband of +int (never have to cast fox cunning again) and put the glasses in inventory. Or wear a helmet of your choice (such as, hoodless circlet)

    The glasses should be slotless for the following VERY good reasons:
    1. The homlet breakage occurs after many instances of resting in the inn / area transitioning (especially the inn). - the change to slotless reduces the need to do so.

    2. Specialist wizards bug - specialist wizard have buggy slots, especially bad if your int changes often (especially going down), by having the glasses slotless, you are free to always wear your best +int headband, thus preventing the bug from occuring (since your int is constant, except for going up 1 point every 4 levels.

    3. Tediousness - it is mind boggingly tedious to alter your spell slot selection to have fox cunning, rest, remove your +int headband, put on glasses, cast fox cunning, sell your stuff, put back the headband of int (taking off the glasses), alter your spell selection, rest again.

    4. Per RAW PnP (which co8 strives for), a +2 appraise item is a slotless masterwork scale.

    5. Per RAW PnP, eye slot and helment slot are two seperate slots and you can have magical glasses AND magical helmet.

    6. Per RAW PnP, non magical gear does not take up a slot (although it might physically prevent something from being worn), the eyeglasses are a masterwork item, not a magic item, and as thus do not conflict with the appropriate slot.

    7. Apperance. You are free to wear a decorative headdress or hoodless circlet. while wearing the glasses any character is simply appearing to be wearing a hooded cloak (since you pretty much always have one). And you avoid the tediousness of switching back and forth from the glasses.

    Keep in mind that bards or rogues, if they are the source of appraise, would benefit from a headband of int as well (and not having to swap back and forth), because it adds to their search skill.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  7. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    alright, I am going to (try) and prove it isn't the resolution...

    I changed it to be 800x600... and it hangs every time i open options or new game interface. I almost forgot that one... ah memories..

    ok i changed it to 1280x768. this allowed me to enter the options menu and use it to set it to be 1280x1024x32 (from within the options menu itself)...

    This is how my current toee.cfg reads:
    Now time to start a new game and have lots of area transitions in homlet, and I will wait 5 seconds after the transition loads before going for the next one... oh and before resting / passing time.

    EDIT:
    well this is going to take a while... When I think about it, it took me at least 10 hours before homlet first broke in any previous playthrough...
    Has anyone been playing a "standard" resultion and ended up with a corruption homlet?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  8. Spider Dwarf

    Spider Dwarf Spider

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    Nope, I'm playing a 1280 X 1024 X 32 game on my 1920 X 1200 X 32 Gateway with nary a hangup. I'm using the 5.7.2 mod. The only frustrating thing I have is that my dual monitor setup gets blown away while I'm in game. I tried windowed mode but that gives me such a little windowed screen to be virtually useless.

    Off to Nulb I go, high-ho, high-ho! The ambush was really fun!
     
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Well I'm glad to hear you are using an approved resolution, but if you had already established that, you shouldn't have mentioned it in the OP. Thats one of the issues I have, you are mixing up 'bug report' with 'irrelevant material' and 'personal preferences on how to the game should be'.

    Now...
    No. No, no, no, no, no.

    The only reason you are even thinking along those lines is because you are playing some bizarro solo game where your wizard is boosting his appraise skills with the glasses because he is the only one there. That is to say, you are trying to max out skills on a character for whom they are cross-classed (ie who is not designed for it) then complaining the game is not set up to help you. Changing items, or even exploring bugs, from the perspective of bizarro games is not on. We've been down this road before with Ioun Stones and for every suggestion as to how this or that bizarro game could be improved by putting something somewhere else, there are 10 other folks playing normal games - or alternate-universe-bizarro games - who will object. And I guarantee you, if we took this step there are folks who regard every single inventory slot as something to be jealously guarded who would object to it (they are out there, and they are vocal). We've also been through it from people who resent putting belts in their Theives' Tools slot.

    A far better option would be to learn to mod and mod your own game to suit your bizarro tastes, which you did. You can now change all that sort of stuff to create a wizard that is ideal for your game. I commend you for that: it is better to light one small candle than blame the darkness on the modders.

    The eyeglasses will not be changing from the head slot for a wide number of reasons:

    - glasses go on the head

    - they shipped in the original game set up for the head slot, and as such are part of Troika's original vision which we are always loath to change unless absolute necessary

    - glasses go on the head

    - they are consistent with the other goggles in the game (minute seeing, charming etc) which go on the head

    - glasses go on the head

    - we don't introduce mods that will favour one style of play at the detriment of others (see "give me back my inventory slot!!!!" players, above). Players are entitled to play in any way they like, but must accept the consequences or mod themselves.

    - seriously, glasses go on the head. They don't work in a backpack.
    Nope can't agree with you there either. The 'conflict' is not a bug, its an inconvenience. Its not a bug because, as you pointed out, there is no eye slot. Its no more a bug than the lack of sunder, or disarm, or mounted feats, are bugs - they're just not there. The eye slot is just not there, so you have to choose between all the eye slot things and all the headgear slot things.

    As for masterwork items - a masterwork item in the hands prevents you holding a weapon. :shrug:
    A different appraise item is the scale. The glasses were meant to approxiate the magnifying glass using an existing element of Troika's game (the eyeglasses), not the scales: they have different uses, and the glasses are more useful and weigh less. However, I am more than happy to add the scales to a future release: you can have a heavier item taking up inventory space if you like, and other folks are free to choose which they want. I don't normally like to double up on things because they would stack, meaning they have to have their bonus type changed, and someone will call that a bug in future, but what the hey. In any case, both will be branded 'new content' and entirely optional.
    A far better way to spend your time would be having a quick look at the other bug reports. The 'freezing around the Inn' bug occured outside, and as such at the main arrival area by World Map. We'd be far better served getting to the bottom of it than adding a workaround that so drastically changes the game as letting you rest anywhere. And while this is indeed less tedious, Co8 folks ranked far above me have on numerous occasions in the past made the point that it is not our job to change the original game just to make things easier for folks who know it inside out. Otherwise, we would have added a big button saying "Press me to go straight to level 2 and skip the fedex quests".

    Thankyou for playing Co8 mods.
     
  10. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    Not true. I have been doing it in every game as far as I can recall.
    When the rogue was the appraise monkey, he was swapping glasses with headband of int (gives +search skill).

    And my bard? I wanted to give him a headband of int just so that I would not have to go through the tediousness of swapping out a spell slot on the wizard from something useful to fox cunning, then swap back, and rest between each swap. (which also requires travel to the inn)

    And on occasion wanting to wear something like a jaunty hat or a hoodless circlet also comes about.

    So anyways, this is NOT an issue due to me playing a "bizzarro game" because this has been an issue for every NORMAL playthrough. Besides I am not the only one who said so.

    I listed 7 good reasons why... do you have counters to all 7? do you have a reason why not?

    Last I checked, Co8 was trying to follow RAW as published by WOTC. I gave 4 seperate reasons (out of the total 7) why THESE glasses should work from INVENTORY.

    BTW... of COURSE they go on the head, you just assume that the PC wears them when you go to a shop, and takes them off when done! Automatically!
    Or wear the totally non magical glasses while wearing a headband of int (which doesn't get in the way).
    Just like a person CAN wear more then 2 rings in DnD world, but only 2 MAGIC rings work at the same time.
    They are in your inventory, but they are not in your backpack... just like how Ioun Stones are supposed to fly around your head, and are placed in the inventory instead. It is assumed they are flying around your head

    I have a game where I can freely go about my business in homlet, but if i enter the inn, rest, and then go outside it will permantly freeze homlet.

    Just because it is an approved resolution doesn't mean it can't cause problems that were not known or forseen. Especially problems that develop after more then 10 hours of play. Especially because, while approved, this is a custom resolution not originally offered by the game.
    But yes, I am only using approved resolutions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  11. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    you know, I will admit it was wrong of me to make the glasses impossible to place into head slot. I should have left them as wearable and just changed them to give the bonus when worn OR in inventory, under the working assumptions:

    1. The character will automatically take off his helmet/magic goggles/whatever and wear them before doing shopping.
    2. They work together with a headband of int (assumed to be worn together) due to the various reasons I have previously described.

    so, yes... later on I will make a version that is equip-able on the head slot, but gives bonus either way via the above two assumptions.
    Bizarro game or not, everyone could take a break from swapping those things back and forth all the time. (to which the alternative was to simply give up and always wear them, forgoing decorative head-wear)
     
  12. Necroticpus

    Necroticpus Cthulhu Ftaghn!

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    So, in summation, eyeglasses are worn on the head, over the eyes? This is good news! I would never have thought of that! I've always been wearing them on my right knee and could never figure out why I wasn't getting the bonus. I suppose this also means that a belt should be worn around the waist and a cloak should be worn on your back. What will they think of next?! This is why Co8 gets paid the big bucks!
     
  13. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    You don't get the bonus from wearing them on the kneee, you are assumed to be wearing them on the eyes when needed by virtue of being in your inventory without having to go through the tediousness of swapping them back and forth all the time.

    EDIT:
    actually you know what, no this isn't it at all.
    I gave seven very good reasons why it should be changed. I haven't heard a compelling counter argument to any. Heck, half were never even addressed at all. All I got was "eyeglasses work on eyes" and "eyeglasses don't work on your knee"... gee, you figure? I must have been dropped on my head often and this is why I thought otherwise.

    And the point of this thread was not the eye glasses, the point is homlet crashing and burning after 10 to 20 hours of gameplay. The glasses were merely one of the suggested suggested methods of mimimizing homlet area transitions in the HOPE it will mitigate the problem. (although the other 6 good reasons? thats gravy). If someone has more info about what causes the problem I am really interested to hear about it.

    BTW. I almost forgot, in regards to me playing a bizarro game (now at least), on one of my earliest games I had my wizard (of the party) as the appraiser because I thought it was thematically cool, and because he had the best int score, by far. Now that I think about it, at level 10 your a rogue or bard would have 13 ranks if maxed out, a wizard 6.5 ranks if maxed out. Depending on their respective int mod, the wizard can actually beat or tie the rogue/bard at level 10, and has the advantage from level 1 through 9. But let me tell you, at the time I didn't care about the math, it just seemed right for a wizard to know this stuff... heck I used to raise the appraise scores of multiple characters concurrently without a care for the fact that only one is used.

    So yes, it is entirely possible for someone to use a wizard as an appraiser in a non bizzarro game... but as I believe I have pointed out, there are various reasons to modify the glasses even for rogues or bards or any class or person who wishes to use appraise. There is not a single class who wouldn't benefit from the assumption of automatically switching to the glasses... The reason you can't make this assumption with combat gear is because you can only wear one of it and switching gear takes a standard action (thus using up your round), so it is important that normal gear be "worn" to be effective... for gear that is used in a shop, the only possible thing stopping you from switching to it is the fact that the player forgot, or that the player is sick of the chore of swapping back and forth (which often ends up with the rogue perma wearing the glasses and forget about the cool hat). Not to mention people still do switch (I am not the only one, I recall others mentioning it) which is just finger breaking unnecessary clicks and UI struggle.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  14. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    @taltamir, what you're experiencing is more commonly known as the "jerkstop phenomenon." It is wide-ranging yet spotty, and I believe the causes that you're postulating are probably inaccurate, mainly because sharper minds than mine (namely Agetian's) have already got something of a grip on what is really causing it. Have a look here: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7212&highlight=jerkstop

    It is a "fatal sector memory leak." Very complicated stuff. What we have yet to figure out is why there is a FSML, particularly in that area that you identified. It very likely has nothing to do with the Welcome Wench map, however, but instead the Hommlet exterior map, in the sector that contains the Welcome Wench. (When you switch maps, there is no 'carry-over' effect; all the new map and sector data is reloaded and the former is discarded. So any ill-effects on the Hommlet exterior map are being caused by the Hommlet exterior map, not the Welcome Wench map.)

    I can verify that it is not the custom resolution of 1680 x 1050 that causes the problem, because that's the resolution I use for developing and testing and I never experience jerkstop.

    Re: the eyeglasses, Ted's mod, Ted's call. Her says no-go on changing it, so can we just leave it at that?

    Also, while we may strive for D&D RAW, we are also bound to and limited by ToEECRPG as designed by Troika (both practically and values-wise). So if ToEECRPG has no separate slots for glasses and headgear, it doesn't matter if that's RAW D&D. Troika must have wanted it that way, and we can't change it anyway.
     
  15. TerMany

    TerMany Member

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    Tartamir, I think you should sense the tone of the modders here. From what I gather, they are not even remotely interested in this and even if they are, it is on the bottom of the to-do list. Also many casual players like me would rather have the developers spend their valuable time constructively on working new contents that people are interested in, not waste time arguing over and over on where the stupid glasses should go.

    It is my suggestion you pick your battles. Find out what you REALLY want to see changed and politely suggest it. Remember, the good folks working on this are not being paid by you. They are not your b1tches and probably will not work 24/7 to get this game just the way you want it to be.
     
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