Help with feats and spells

Hello everyone!

I would first like to congratulate the co8 team for the great mod they have made. It makes the game A LOT better!

As a noob, I had some questions regarding feats and skills as I do not know which ones are useful or useless in this game.

For starters, I have made a 6 person party and I do not intend to recruit any NPCs. My party will have a fighter, a cleric, a druid, a rogue, a bard/sorc and a wiz.

Concerning skills
-------------------

1) is there any speech skill that is not used in the game?
2) is there a skill, besides tumble, that should be taken by every member of the party?
3) are the appraise, heal and spellcraft skills really useful (besides for the wizard who needs spellcraft)?
4) should I take UMD ranks for my fighter, cleric and druid?

Concerning feats
-------------------
a) Should my bard/sorc be taking spell focus feats or spell penetration feats? The way I have planned him to build only leaves me room for 2 more feats, so I have to make a choice here. The reason why I am multiclassing is to allow him to spam fireballs on my foes.



If I think of other questions, I will come back to post them but that is already enough food for thought.
Thanks in advance!

 

Regarding skills:

All of the communication skills are used, early and often. While you could spread them out, this limits your interaction to just who the original speaker is. I would have the rouge or bard/soc concentrate on these. A rogue with a decent INT score can have a lot of skill points to go around, and disable device is also INT based.

Some skills are party based, so only one person needs to take it, like Appraise (Rogue), and Survival (Druid).

Spellcraft can help you identify spells cast at you, but its not a do or die skill. It really helps wizards learn scrolls, so he should concentrate on this.

As for others, I always put any left over skill points into tumble. Even non frontliners get jumped in the back of the party now and then, especially when changing maps. So having your low HP wiz be able to move away from the battle is essential. For my frontliners, I usually put all points into tumble, fighters only have a few choices, and I need them to be mobile damage machines. All spellcasters should take some points in concentrate, nothing like having that planned fireball fizzle when you get hit by a prepared arrow.

Any left over skill points for everyone else should go into listen and spot. When a surprise round is initiated, the game checks everyone's spot and listen skills vs the enemy, those who fail are flat footed and cannot at during the first round. This happens a lot if you rest in a non safe area (Which is useful to get random encounters for extra XP). This is really important for your frontline fighter types, as you want them to get a swing in every round.

I would only have the rogue take the UMD skill, I believe its cross class for the others, so it would take a lot of points to make a difference. But the rogue with a high INT has so many skill points, might as well use them all over. By the time you have the money to afford to buy or make wands, the rogue will be able to use them. Nothing like an extra fireball added to the mix!


Some feats I never take are: Heal, there are so many healing potions in the game that I never waste a turn trying to use the heal skill. And slight of hand, this might be OK very early in the game, you end up with so much money, its not worth the time or effort later on.

On feats:

Yes have your bard/soc take a few spell penetration and spell focus feats. While the penetration is not needed early, few low level monsters have spell resistance, the spell focus can go a long way. You may want to plan ahead and look at the bard and soc spell lists so you take a particular focus in something that will benefit both class spells.

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks, that helps a lot actually!

I have some more questions about feats:

1) I plan to give Fragarach to my rogue for sneak attacks. Which feats could be useful? I have been thinking of giving him cleave, great cleave, improved feint and/or improved trip.

2) From what I understand, gnomes and halflings cannot wield Fragarach or Scather? Is there any way to bypass this (I want my rogue to be a halfling)?

3) It's hard to build my gnomish or human bard with so few feats. Supposing I reach lv 20, here is the layout of the feats I plan to take:

Dodge
Combat Casting
Improved Initiative
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

Depending on the race of my character, I have 2-3 more feats to allocate. Spell focus for enchantement and evocation schools sounds tempting, but then I will only be able to take spell penetration. I will be missing all the "greater" feats... Do you have any suggestion to make?

4) Do my cleric and druid need spell penetration and greater spell penetration or should I concentrate on other feats?

5) Which domains should I pick for my cleric? I hesitate between 2 deities, one of which grants the good and war domains, while the other grants the sun and healing domains. Which is better?

Thanks again!

 

Bastard swords and great swords are too big for the little guys. Better to give it to a fighter or barbarian who can concentrate on feats to maximize damage like weapon specialization ans improved critical.


While I love halflings and gnomes, I find I never take them anymore because they are so slow and cannot keep up with the party while moving around the map. What really sucks is a small druid who shapeshifts into small bears who can't hit anything.

Unless you are soloing, you won't reach 20th level, so just go with what works for you. Will the bard be a backup spellcaster, or an archer? If he is going to be single classed, you could go elf for the free longbow feat (bards only get shortbow).

For the cleric and druid, there are better feats than spell penetration, like augment summoning and greater turning.

For the domains, you almost always need a good so you can craft holy weapons. Law is OK, I find healing to be redundant, as there are so many healing potions and you can convert all cleric spells into healing spells in emergencies. So I might go with strength, sun. or war for the associated spells.

 

Thanks again for the detailed answers.

Last few questions and I am ready to go!

1) Stats

- Is there a point in giving points in WIS to my fighter and rogue? The fighter will certainly take the iron will feat but my rogue won't. I am worried they keep getting confused, scared, etc.

2) Races

- Is there any point in having a dwarven fighter compared to a human fighter? I am not sure if Toee implements the rules about movement in heavy armour.

3) Feats

- My druid will already take the spell focus (conj) and augment summoning feats. What else can he take?

- I am trying to think which feats could be useful for my druid, cleric and bard. Do you think everyone will need spell penetration?

-I know for sure that I will make a bard/sorcerer. He will be a bard for 10 lvs and will be acting as support. Then, once he gets multiclassed, he will be using offensive spells as well. Will he need spell focus (enchantment and evocation)?

 

I can weigh in here with a little experienced help:


1. WIS helps with WILL saves. This is important mostly when fighting clerics and wizards (which come mostly late int he game, and VERY important when fear effects like certain late baddies give. There are entire threads of resisting the fear of one particular baddie in specific in this forum. I will not give any spoilers away, but yes it is important for any class.

2. Dwarven fighters can use Dwarven weapons without taking the Exotic Weapon feat, so that is a plus. They also get a pretty good CON bonus, and Hit points are important to fighters. However, Human fighters get an extra Feat at first level, and there are plenty of regular weapons that do wonderful damage, so the Feat wins our for me.

3. Spell penetration is helpful for any caster late in the game against the very high SRs you will run into. If you want Feats for your Druid, that is a great one to take. Also, if your Druid isn't the most healthy , and Hit Points are an issue, Toughness is good. You will need everyone to have high Hit Points late in the game. Also Natural spell will allow the Druid to run around in Brown Bear form and cast, and that is effectively a wonderful CON buff.

Any damage caster like a Sorcerer can benefit from Evocation Focus, just as a Fighter benefits from Weapon Focus. Same goes with enchanting, however a good Bard is a master enchanter without that.

My 2 cents worth.

Enjoy!

 

On stats, I consider the rogue the most important member of the party, and while rolling, if I get some real good numbers, I always make that the rogue. Obviously he needs a great DEX score, but he also needs a good INT and CHR score in my parties, since he will be the spokesman and he needs a lot of skill points to cover all the talking skills, plus the necessary rogue skills. A high CHR helps with many of the talking skills. You don't need a Conan STR and CON scores, but obviously more hit points always helps, and you don't want the STR so low he gets bogged down carrying his equipment. I find WIS to be the dump score, as his saves are pretty good, but you don't want a negative there either. I find a 14-18-14-16-10-12 works great if you can get it.


For the druid, I like to go with some fighting feats early (after the Augment Summoning like you have done) then later go with more spellcasting feats. Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Cleave are good choices early on, then go into more spell focus on ones you use a lot, then late in the game grab Craft Wondrous Items, because there are several good ones that only Druids can make, like Amulets of Natural Armor.


The bard should get Spell Focus-Conjuration, maybe Evocation as well, as the feats will effect both class spells.


The dwarven fighter is a great choice. Yes, humans get that extra feat, which helps a lot early in the game, but late in the game you are struggling with what feat to take, and end up with Iron Will or something lame like that. There are a few nice sets of heavy armor in the game, and someone should wear them, so a high STR/CON dwarf with a lower DEX is perfect.

 

Hi Pouffie
Please allow me to add my 2 CP worth if I may. My comments are in red.

Concerning skills
-------------------

1) is there any speech skill that is not used in the game?
Not really. They all get used at one time or another. The important ones are Diplomacy and Bluff though.
2) is there a skill, besides tumble, that should be taken by every member of the party?
Listen is a must for every member, as it helps prevent your PC's from being surprised and losing a round.
3) are the appraise, heal and spellcraft skills really useful (besides for the wizard who needs spellcraft)?
Appraise is very useful (only your Rogue needs to take it), Heal is useless, and Spellcraft is a must for your wizard.
4) should I take UMD ranks for my fighter, cleric and druid?
I never do, and never have any problems, but then again I have never equipped any fighters, clerics, and/or druids that I have used with items that require UMD to use.

Concerning feats
-------------------
a) Should my bard/sorc be taking spell focus feats or spell penetration feats? The way I have planned him to build
only leaves me room for 2 more feats, so I have to make a choice here. The reason why I am multiclassing is to allow him to spam fireballs on my foes.
Personally I would recommend Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augmented Summons. In theory "spamming Fireballs" sounds great, unfortunately Fireballs usually aren't enough to wipe out most of your tough opponents (like the large groups of Bugbears that you will encounter in a few locations in the Temple). On the other hand, Stinking Cloud (especially when used in conjunction with "Spiritual Weapon", "Web", and "Spike Stones" makes large groups of enemies very easy to handle. Spell Penetration is however a "Must Have" feat for any caster who will be casting spells directly at the enemy (i.e Wizards casting Fireballs and Magic Missles)

1) I plan to give Fragarach to my rogue for sneak attacks. Which feats could be useful? I have been thinking of giving him cleave, great cleave, improved feint and/or improved trip.
I will be honest with you, I no longer plan a character around Fragarach. As far as I am concerned, the only time Fragarach is useful is if you "Meta Game" one fight on level 4 with a visiting "head of state" (I am trying to avoid giving out spoilers). Otherwise, I get better results without Fragarach. For starters, you can't craft any other pluses or effects onto it (so it's less useful against Elementals than a +1 Shocking Burst shortsword), and secondly, you never really know when you are going to get it. As far as the feats go, I would suggest Dodge and Mobility instead of Cleave and Great Cleave. Also keep in mind that you must have the "Power Attack" feat and a Strength of 13 to acquire the "Cleave" feat. As I see it, the "Cleave" feats are for the "Tanks" (your Fighter and Cleric in the front rank). I know it's theoretically possible for a Rogue (especially one that is invisible) to get in a good backstab that kills the target, while the Rogue is within striking distance of a second target. The problem as I see it is that, you are picking three feats that you MIGHT use once per battle, which in my opinion is a waste of feats.



3) It's hard to build my gnomish or human bard with so few feats. Supposing I reach lv 20, here is the layout of the feats I plan to take:

Dodge
Combat Casting
Improved Initiative
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Depending on the race of my character, I have 2-3 more feats to allocate. Spell focus for enchantement and evocation schools sounds tempting, but then I will only be able to take spell penetration. I will be missing all the "greater" feats... Do you have any suggestion to make?
Assuming you are going with a Bardic Archer, I would recommend a Half - Elf or an Elf. An Elf starts of with proficiency in the Longbow, but a Half-Elf has the advantage when Multi-classing (you can get 10 Levels in bard before switching to Sorcerer without any Experience Point Penalty). Regarding the feats listed above, I would start with "Point Blank Shot" then take "Precise Shot",as the -4 penalty for shooting into Melee hurts more at the lower levels. Improved Initiative can be useful, depending on your Bards Dexterity (it's more important for characters with Low DEX scores). Dodge and Combat Casting, I wouldn't recommend for a "Fire Support Specialist" (i.e. an Archer in the rear). I would definitely recommend Spell Penetration and even Greater Spell Penetration, and Spell Focus in either Conjuration or Enchantment, depending on your style of play. The reason I DON'T recommend "Spell Focus: Evocation" is that there are only two Bardic Evocation spells that would benefit from SF:E : Sound Burst (2nd Level Spell) and Shout ( 4th Level Spell). On the other hand, Bards can cast several Conjuration spells (to include Summon Monster I - IV) that would benefit from Spell Focus
Conjuration.


4) Do my cleric and druid need spell penetration and greater spell penetration or should I concentrate on other feats?
I would highly recommend that your Druid has Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, for casting "Call Lightning" on some of the "Big Bad Guys". Other feats for the Druid to pick up are "Craft Wondrous Item" (to craft Amulets of Natural Armor) and "Craft Arms and Armor". If at all possible you should make sure that your Cleric has "Craft Arms and Armor" no later than 6th Level, so he/she can add "Holy" to everybody's weapons upon reaching 7th Level. One thing about "Craft Arms and Armor", it is the ONE feat that you want several people in the party to have. There are two reasons for this.
1.) Not every caster can add every effect. For instance, only your Cleric can craft "Holy" weapons, but he can't craft "shock" or "Icy" weapons.
2.) By having multiple Arms and Armor Crafters you can prevent them from falling too far behind in levels from all the Experience Points they use while crafting the Arms and Armor.
For costs and requirements on Crafting items of any type you can download a spreadsheet from this thread: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?p=107466#post107466

5) Which domains should I pick for my cleric? I hesitate between 2 deities, one of which grants the good and war domains, while the other grants the sun and healing domains. Which is better?
My personal choice is to go with a Cleric of either Heironeous or Corellon Larethian with the "War" and "Good" domains. Any cleric with the "War" domain automatically starts with "Weapon Focus" in their dieties' chosen weapon (in the case of Heironeous and Corellon Larethian, that's the Longsword) for free. The other advantage of the "War" domain is the extra "Spiritual Weapon" every day.

 

TRC, don't downplay Sound Burst spell. A 2nd level multi-target spell that very few are resistant to (sonic) and with a good chance of stunning them for a few rounds.

I also like to take the War Domain for that free longsword, as I usually have my frontliners take other weapons, and I hate to waste the good longswords available. A sword and board cleric who can use the good heavy armors!

 

Hi GG
I wasn't disparaging Sound Burst at all (or at least I didn't intend to). I use it myself on occasion. I was simply pointing out that there are only two good Evocation spells (Sound Burst being one of them) in the Bardic spell list.
I agree with you on the good-aligned, war domain clerics. If you are running a Good, CN or LN party, you would be wise to have one in the party, especially seeing as you can get a very powerful weapon for said cleric before you ever leave Hommlet.

 

Thanks for your replies, guys! I really appreciate you take the time to answer each question in detail.

I finally found some time to set up my party. After some testing, I discovered that halflings and gnomes can carry bastard swords if they take the weapon prof feat. For the sake of variety, I am willing to sacrifice one feat for that purpose.

Now, when it comes to feats, I still have some questions:

1) I am wondering if a cleric need spell penetration and greater s.p. at all. They don't seem to have any offensive spells. Wouldn't it be better to let him summon monsters instead (spell focus conjuration + augment summoning)? Moreover, it may be a waste to make him take power attack+cleave.

2) Same question for the druid: being in a dungeon, he won't be able to cast call lightning. Is it worth taking spell penetration + greater s.p. if he doesn't have many offensive spells in the first place?

3) Concerning the rogue, I am unable to choose feats apart from dodge, improved initiative, combat expertise, improved feint. What else might I need? You guys say that power attack and cleave are a waste. Mobility might be a waste as well since my character can tumble easily...

4) I will leave the offensive spells to my bard/sorc and wizard. Both will get spell focus (evocation), however I might make them take another spell focus feat. Which ones are really good? enchantment or conjuration? I think conjuration is superior to enchantment...

5) I had planned to take point blank shot and precise shot for my cleric, bard/sorc and wizard, however I didn't have enough slots for these. So, I decided to give up on them since ranged fighting is not suited to dungeons/corridor combat (which is most of the game).



Concerning skills, is it enough to spend points in either spot or listen, or should I spend points in both skills? Does the game make 2 separate checks, thus increasing my chances if I have ranks in both skills?

 

1. Don't get spell penetration for a cleric (unless you're going for a de-buff cleric), it's not worth the feat slot for him. As for a summoner though, a druid is much better at it since he can spontaneously summon.

2. Call lightning works just fine underground.

3. Have you checked the stats requirements for feats? Although I do find there's not a lot of good feat for a rogue. Have you considered going the two-weapons fighting path? It's decent for a rogue.

4. Conjuration school has some of the best debuffs in the game. Although if you're a bard, I might go enchantment focus. Although I feel that evocation focus is a waste.

5. You'd be surprised how often ranged combat comes into play in a dungeon but you're right that you don't have enough feats to get PBS and precise shot. Even spells that require a to-hit roll are only vs touch AC so you don't really need those two feats. Just don't try to be an archer and you'd be fine.

 

That really depends on how you plan to use them. You can play a cleric that buffs and heals and fights, or you can have one that stays in the background and heals and summons etc. Same for the druid. Druids get good offensive spells earlier than clerics (btw, there are some for divine casters: Flame Strike, Holy Smite, Ice Storm, Call Lightning come to mind), and I once found Meleny become the main offensive spellcaster in the party (a sorcless one, obviously). Personally, I like spell penetration at least for the druid, but then I don't rely so much on summons.

I wouldn't even take combat expertise and feint. Many people take weapon finesse and the two weapon fighting stuff, which is somehow natural since shields interfere with tumbling. Or the archer-related feats. Dodge is a must, improved initiative maybe not, because they have high Dex and therefore good rolls anyway. I also like a rogue that specializes on spike chain (finesse-able!) and takes exotic wp and focus. Also exotic wp kukri is probably often found (for some reason TOEE considers kukris exotic; NWN too, makes you wonder whether these people have ever seen a kukri in the real life).

That is probably more a matter of style. Sleep and charm also have their appeal.

I take it that is not based on actual experience? Because it would be a rather odd observation. Anyway, clerics hardly get enough feats to waste on melee or archery, plus they won't usually have the Dex to be useful archers, and since they can wear heavy armor and shields and swing useful weapons, they would typically go into melee when they don't cast. Wiz and Sorc are typically equipped with a crossbow or somesuch, which is useful at low levels but does not warrant putting extra feats in, because they will at later levels maybe prefer to carry a special staff of sorts, and anyway have enough spells to focus on casting exclusively.

 

2. I thought Call Lightning has been "fixed" so it didn't work indoors?

3&5. Rogues become very good ranged attackers with the right feats. They already have the high DEX, but with light armor they might not be best suited up front, so going with a bow and firing from 30 feet means sneak attack damage all around. Make a holy flame burst bow and he is a killer.

If not going duel weapon and finesse (they are an abundance of magic short swords in the game) can be effective.

 

It works fine for me no matter where I am.

With the lack of a grid I find it hard to tell where 30 feet from an enemy is so I prefer to just have a melee rogue.