Gameplayhelp/hints/discussions

i thought I'd try this just to see what kind of response I get. No tecnical, modding, bug-fixing,etc. Just gameplay issues, party creation, spell selection, using the dialogue,etc. Storyline stuff. I have tons of old D&D stuff back to the 70's. Any suggesstions, criticism, ideas?

 

I would like to see a list of ALL class types for a five member party and why eash one is good and what you would use it for, no bickering, and remember this is the CRPG not table top version. for example why is a cleric better than a druid, why is a druid better than a cleric. Also with the how you would use the class, list types of feats to take on character creation dependant on role and why they are good


ok there are bad things about every class but i don't want to hear how x is better than y because y is shit so if you're going to say disadvantages then do so like you are writing the book that comes with the game.

I just remembered the weapon list in the book is in complete and some new weapons have been added. some of us are to lazy to look in the protos or don't know how. Need info on weapons like heavy fail, katana, etc.

- WARNING -
For those reading this thread for the first time, unless something is done, eg deleting posts, there isn't much information between posts 43/44ish to about post 77. I'm not saying it's all bullshit just mostly bullshit (imho), a repeat of an argument from another thread, if you read it you might learn something you might not, but it does get better again.

 

Okay, let's look at what we know and need for this "dungeon crawl". We need power, spell and sword. There are lots of undead. There's over 100 bugbears of different levels all the way to 13HD, 85+HP GTB's. We need power area effect spells, fireball, icestorm, coneofcold, lightning storm, etc. We need power weapons and armour, so we need crafters. What type/class of pc can do/give us the things we need to survive and succeed.
1. Cleric. Good alignment with greater turning(Pelor with sun and healing). Can have all the crafting feats and with good strength can fight well also. No armour restictions.
2.Druid. Can heal and has other spells. Weak at lower levels but has call lightning, flamestrike and lightning storm later on, Can craft items and has good selction of feats. Armour and shield restrictions but with high dexterity and crafting can still get AC28. Very powerful at high levels.
3.Wizard/Sorcerer. Wizards have a wider range of spell and feat selection. Wizards have fireball and all the power spells. Has all crafting feats. High level
wizards are the most powerful players you can have.
4.Rogues, Monks, and Paladins are unique speciality players with their own special skills. Rogues can find/remove traps, pick locks,sneak attack, etc. Monks with high dexterity and strength can fight really well. You have to know how to "use" a monk to max potential. Paladins have too many restrictions but can lay on hands and turn undead.
5.Fighter. Get the biggest ,strongest one you can get. Take all weapon feats you can get, especially exotic weapons(bastardsword) so you can use Scather one-handed. Rangers have their own unique skills and with high strength and dexterity and 2weapons fighting they can be tough. They're better suited for wilderness type adventures.

 

The starting 5. Party align Chaotic Good.
1.Cleric of Pelor, features sun and healing(or strength), extra and improved turning, greater turning, read magic and cure light wounds.
2. Wizard half-elf, read magic and magic missile. Also enlarge person, mage armour, identify, grease and protect from evil. Good search ability. Combat casting.
3/4.Fighters with the highest strength, dexterity and constitution you can get(roll).Skills, boost intimidate.
5. Optional. If playing Liv's mods and not using npc's then a Rogue. Any speciality pc of personal liking.
All should have prime ability scores 17-18. One needs a Charisma of 18 for the Hommlet quests. With this group you can do everything you need to and they work real well. I've went to level 4 many a time with them with terrific success.

 

party neutral good.

# 5.Rogue: important, especially with liv's mod.(i wound'nt recommed playing without it). i use my rogue to pick pocket everybody.

#4.Wizard:high levels very strong, craftings preety sweet too.

#3.Cleric of Pelor sun\healing domains. heals everyone and can fight too.

#2.Fighter with great fortitude, diehard, toughness,weapons focus, power attack, etc. etc., he becomes nearly unstopable

#1.Bard as party leader and spokesperson i give her feats like negotiator, persuasive, investigator, and skills in diplomacy, bluff, sence motive,and so on. she catches on to all the quests, nobody gets away.

that's my typical 5 man party to wich npc's can be added, or 2 more pc's of any class plus Elmo. Elmo's handy cause when i need position #8 for a quest, i just send him home and then go get him again.

 

With the expanding mods, the rogue is going to be more important. More traps, locks that wont open with knock. I can see the need for a rogue increasing. Bards and Monks are good if you know or learn how to use them. Multi-class works well with the right feats and combinations. If you use the pc patch counter say to 7, you can get just about everything. Leave 1 slot open for a npc, like Elmo, Burne or Prince Thrommel. I'm going to take Wonnilon here pretty quick. He can open that chest in the fire temple. I need to sharpen up on my rogue using skills myself. Nice thing about this game is the options. Once you get the handle on things you can create/do just about anything.

 

Same stuff eveyone has posted, with a bit more.

Giving your Cleric Scribe Scrolls as his first feat means unlimited Cure Light Wounds scrolls, and any other 1st level spells you'd like (they cost 1 XP each in ToEE).

Giving someone (Bard or Rogue are best) a high Appraise skill means that you can sell scrolls for more than they cost to scribe from level 1; that means unlimited money early in the game when you really need it. 0 level scrolls cost 0 XP to scribe.

A High Wisdom sorcerer with Persuasive and Negotiator, plus a Snake familliar, is as good as any "front man" your party can have at first level, and if supported by a Druid item crafter only really starts to fall behind at 4th level or so. That Sorc can carry you through Nulb. A Cleric with the Trickery domain is also a good choice. Rogues and Bards are the best face men, but you only really need them in that role if going for the hidden merchant in Liv's mod or doing the temple quests. Using feats to boost negotiation skills does mean some loss of direct spell power at higher levels.

There's a lot to be said for picking just one King of All Skills. A rogue is best in this role, followed closely by a Bard or a Rogue/Ranger. If you do use a Bard or Rogue as your KoAS, don't skimp on Use Item. Use Item plus a little planning when you craft and scribe means that the KoAS can stand in as a very solid spellcaster by around level five or six.

A Human Druid with Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summons, plus Scribe Scroll at level 3, gives you a large supply of high quality cannon fodder; that +4 STR and CON makes a real difference. Level 6 can be used for a Crafting feat, and level 9 can add one last crafting feat or Natural Spell. Wildshape isn't really worth much until the bear forms become available, unless you built your Druid with low physical stats.

Two casters using area spells is better than one, and four or five area spells can win many fights in the first round.

You don't need to plan or buff all that much with an all melee party: Two Fighter/Barbarians, one Druid, one Rogue/Ranger, and one Cleric work very well, and barely have to think in the early game. Five Druids or Five Clerics can squish anything in the game with a little planning, as long as one of them takes a level of Rogue. An all caster party has to plan and buff more, but can win most fights faster, often without taking any damage at all: One Cleric, One Druid, One Bard, One Rogue/Wizard, and one Wizard work well. The all melee team will kill the toughest monsters faster, the all caster team will do it without taking a single casualty. An all Wizard team can finish the game, beat every foe, and not reload once in the hands of a player who takes the time to plan, but (imo) it's not as much fun as the mixed parties.

Liv's new Hard Mode will probably change some of the above.

 

Good stuff. I think with Livonya changes the need for planning and talking is going to move up. Skills and feats not used very often will become very handy. The charisma stat will become more important. Us old hack and slash types might have have to change their ways.
I've never had a problem with healing, with the scrolls "loaned " by Terjon and all the potions it's not been a problem. Unless Elmo gets clobbered a good one. I just wish the npc's didn't sell-off the potions and scrolls so they can heal themselves in case the cleric can't get there. The big ogre chief killed Elmo and the cleric didn't get there in time.
I really want to see Liv2.0 and how much it changes the game. Some new thinking and stategy will probably be necessary.

 

Yup, it all comes down to party and play style. I like to stock up on Cure Wounds scrolls (no weight, always get used eventually) and use cleric spell slots offensively and for buffs; on the other hand, I run with low stat (point buy) parties, no re-rolls and no re-loads. With a higher HP and stat party, healing can become close to a non-issue.

 

I like the scroll routine. About 10 cure moderate/serious would work. Plus a stock of potions then use the spell slots for other stuff. Good ideal. Thanks.

 

I want people to talk me into using classes that I wouldn't normally use; barbarian, bard, sorcerer, druid and I just started using rogues.

 

Barbarian - A STR 20 Half-Orc Barbarian will be at STR 24 when raging, higher when buffed with spells (a few of which stack with Rage), moves fast (40), and multi-classes very well with Fighter and fairly well with Rogue. If I want a non-spell caster, the Barbarian/X is my favorite after the Rogue/Ranger.

Bard - The second best spokesman your party can have (after Rogue), very good backup Wizard and Cleric (even better with Use Item), and his songs will stack with most other buffs, making the entire rest of the party better at everything. Not that great for directly hurting the foe at lower levels, but give him a stack of Sleep scrolls in the early game and a stack of Fireball scrolls in the mid-game (once his Use Item is over 12) and he'll have a body count almost as high as your main spellcaster.

Sorcerer - I prefer Wizards in ToEE, but the Sorc takes less planning to use, can serve as a fair spokesman for your party (High Bluff adds to both Diplomacy and Intimidate), and with a high STR and a longspear can even do fairly well as a second string melee fighter in the early and mid game.

Druid - Human, Spell Focus Conjuration + Augment Summons at level 1, Scribe Scrolls at 3, Craft Item at 6, Craft Weapon at 9. Your summonned animals will do almost as much damage as a well armed fighter, and you have up to 4 at a time plus your animal companion (who is almost as good as a melee Cleric himself). Your offensive spells are almost as good as those of a Wizard, you get buffs as good as any in the game, you can heal, and with a good DEX you can fight as well as most clerics. Go with a Half-Orc (STR 20, keep all stats save INT and CHA high), drop one of the crafting feats or Scribe Scrolls, and you'll fight almost as well as a fighter while still having all of the other options available. Druids rock.

Rogue - A pure rogue archer is one of the deadliest attackers in the game; sneak attacks work with missile weapons. The best speaker in the game, can Use Items to serve as a backup spellcaster, multiclasses well with almost anything except Bard (still works, but you don't gain that much out of the multi). If you don't like archers, give him a high STR, Martial Weapon:Glaive or Great Sword (or one level of fighter), Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, and watch him kill things almost as fast as your fighters.

 

Penta Power Party

A five-sorcerer party can dominate the late game, though getting fireball is the toughest part.

A "balanced" effective party could be thus, assuming patches 1 and 2, Co8 3.0.4, and Livonya's 1.51 and no NPCs.

Half-Orc Barbarian1/FighterX(/Ranger1)
1: Improved Initiative
2: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
3: Power Attack, Cleave
5: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
6: Combat Reflexes
7: Dodge
9: Improved Critical (Greatsword), (Improved Unarmed Strike)
(11: Deflect Arrow)

Favored Enemy: Giants, Humans, or Goblinoids

Skills to Max: Survival, Tumble

Notes: This is your tank. His job is to kill things as quickly as possible with the highest average damage weapon, the greatsword. Wear a masterwork chain shirt or elven armor for best effect.

Elf ClericX - Magic and Trickery Domains
1: Improved Initiative
3: Craft Wondrous Item
6: Craft Magic Arms & Armor

Skill to Max: Concentration, Tumble

Notes: He heals, he shoots, he uses some arcane devices, and he also makes stuff. Trickery is mostly for Suggestion. If he channels negative energy, he can command an undead army. Considering that most of his spells become cures anyway, doing this is a pretty solid idea.

Elf Rogue1/Wizard1/RogueX
1: Skill Focus (Appraise)
2: Raven Familiar
3: Improved Initiative
6: Weapon Focus (Longbow or Longsword)
9: Improved Critical (Longbow or Longsword)

Skills to Max: Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Listen, Search, Spot, Tumble
Add Concentration to this list if you intend to cast in combat. Also, ensure you have some Spellcraft so you can scribe scrolls.

Notes: He sells stuff for a high a price as possible while finding secret doors fairly well. He can also use some arcane devices.

Human SorcererX
1: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Evocation), Toad Familiar
3: Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
6: Spell Penetration
9: Empower Spell

Skills to Max: Concentration, Tumble

Spells of Note by Level: Acid Splash (0), Burning Hands (1), Magic Missile (1), Knock (2), Invisibility (2), Fireball (3), Haste (3), Clairvoyance (3), Dimension Door (4), Fire Shield (4), Cone of Cold (5)

These are ToEE's most essential Sor/Wiz spells. I prefer to concentrate on killing things quickly and this list reflects such. Also, the list shows the order in which I advise taking these spells.

Notes: He is the cajun cook of the arcane magic world. He blasts and trashes the world over. His level 5 slots usually go to empowered fireballs.

CHOICE 1: Human EvokerX - Necromancy and Enchantment Banned
1: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Evocation), Toad Familiar
3: Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
5: Craft Wand
6: Spell Penetration
9: Empower Spell

Spell-wise, if you take him, Expeditious Retreat (1) and Enlarge Person (1) are helpful to have, as well as Greater Invisibility (4).

Does he look familiar? You could switch him for a sorcerer with little trouble. He crafts wands of fireball so the rest of your party can get in on the action. If another arcane caster is not appealing to you, try one of these options.

CHOICE 2: Human Barbarian1/FighterX(/Ranger1)
1: Improved Initiative, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spike Chain)
2: Weapon Focus (Spike Chain)
3: Combat Reflexes
5: Power Attack
6: Cleave
7: Weapon Specialization (Spike Chain)
9: Improved Critical (Spike Chain), Dodge

Skills to Max: Survival, Tumble

Notes: In the tabletop game, he would be a trip-monkey, but in ToEE, he tries to get as many AoOs from others as possible.

CHOICE 3: Elf DruidX
1: Improved Initiative
3: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
6: Natural Spell
9: Augment Summoning

Skills to Max: Listen, Spot, Survival, Tumble

Notes: "Why elf?" you might say. Longbows and longswords are the best overall ranged and 1 handed weapons in ToEE. Being able to entangle the hill giant and his bear at level 1 goes a long way toward killing things quickly. Besides, your wolf and eventually polar bear companion will aid your wild self.

-EE

 

you mean cleric of Boccob the only god with both magic and trickery domains. I have never played a game without a cleric yet, once with two clerics

reasons why I (or others) don't use a class:
bad experiances
-with barbarins, he was to weak compared to my fighter, probably due to poor choice of weapons and feats
-with bards, see above
-with spell casters, see above + spell selection

 

Any single class is pretty strong in the right circumstances, though play style makes a big difference. Rogues, Bards and Wizards in particular only really shine when you tke the time to use their tricks and buffs.

Multi-Class is trickier.

Fighter/Barbarian works very well.

Rogue + Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Druid or Wizard all work well, but only Rogue/Ranger really lets the Rogue hang on to most of his skills. The others will either require multiple Rogue levels, or the use of Nimble Fingers and Skill Focus: Search to keep all key skills high.

Bards and Sorcerers don't multi well with much of anything. In theory the Paladin/Sorc should be a good combo, but in practice a save bonus is not worth a delay in your progress towards Fireball and the loss of 5th level spells.

Fighter/Mages and Cleric/Mages have gone from the kings of all multiclasses to kind of weak; for both, you're now better off going with a Druid.