First replay in 15+ years. Some questions.

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by JDR13, Aug 9, 2021.

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  1. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    So I'm finally replaying ToEE for the first time since shortly after it was released. I'm using the Co8 standard patch and Temple+. Because it's been so long since I've played it, my memory of certain things is slim to none.

    A few questions...

    1. Are enemies easier to aggro than in the vanilla game? It seems like more offscreen enemies join in battle now. It's possible I'm just remembering that wrong though. Note: I do not have the 'Alert AI across rooms' option checked.

    2. I took the Heighten Spell metamagic feat for my Wizard, and I kind of feel like it's a wasted feat. Doesn't scribing scrolls at a higher caster level have the same effect?

    3. I saw that it was recommended to disable the 'End Turn after Default Action' option and set 'End Turn with Time Remaining' to never. Is that closer to actual rules? It seems like it would make the game easier. Also, was that option always there or was it added by CO8?

    4. I just finished the battle with Lareth at the Moathouse, and...
    I chose to kill him and then got ambushed by that large group while leaving. Did that always happen before? I don't remember. It seems like an unfair battle without metagaming. Also, is there any way to avoid it?
     
  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    4. That's newish Co8 content (v5 or so). To avoid, recruit or otherwise mess with one of the 3 main participants (Turuko, Zert and Kobort).

    3. Probably makes the game easier, but mainly, stops the turn ending before you are ready for it to end, which always sucks.

    2. Personally Heighten is about the only metamagic feat I use: Heightened spells should overcome SR better, if I am reading everything right (and possibly have tougher saves).
     
  3. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    Heighten shouldn't (barring a bug) affect spell resistance, because that's based on caster level.

    The main effect is the tougher saves. E.G. if your wizard casts Hold Peron using a 5th level slot, the base save DC should still be 13 (10 + 3rd level). But casting one heightened to 5th level is DC 15 base (and you add your ability bonus to both). I think this works correctly.

    The other thing it should be able to do is go through Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, because that blocks spells of 3rd level or lower. However, I think ToEE is somewhat bugged there, because it only keeps track of what level slot the spell requires (unless it's via the 'sudden' versions, maybe). This means that all metamagic contributes to it going through the globe, even though that's supposed to be one of heighten's uses (e.g. a maximized fireball is blocked by a globe, but a heightened fireball isn't). I've been wanting to fix stuff like this, but I think it might require a little tweaking in the engine.

    (Edit: there are other examples that should work like the globe, like Break Enchantment, but they're all likely to be bugged in the same way.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  4. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    So what's the difference between using Heighten Spell or simply scribing it as a higher level scroll?

    I'm just curious why those options aren't enabled by default. Do you think the devs intended it to played with the player's turn always ending after an attack move? If so, then I'm torn on whether or not to use those options because it would sort of be an exploit, wouldn't it?
     
  5. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    I'd imagine the main reason it exists and is on by default is to make combat "faster" / more casual friendly. E.g. I've seen LPs of people who aren't even aware there's 5ft steps in the game (or at least act like it), just clicking to auto-attack and casting the usual spells.

    Also, the AI uses the same rules in principles.
     
  6. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    The variable level of a scroll is the caster level. Changing it is like changing the class level of the wizard/cleric/whatever that would be casting the spell, which affects stuff like damage and spell resistance. It is mostly unrelated to the spell level (0-9), which controls saving throw DC, and is what heighten affects.
     
  7. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    I'll have to test it some more, but so far I haven't seen the AI use it. Enemies still seem to always end their turn after an attack.
     
  8. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    Ok, I think the difference between caster level and spell level is what was confusing me. So scribing it can't change the spell level, only the caster level.

    So there would be no point in using Heighten Magic for spells that don't have a saving throw, right?
     
  9. dolio

    dolio Established Member Supporter

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    Some other effects are governed by the spell's level, like globe of invulnerability I mentioned above. But those are bugged in the way also mentioned, so any other metamagic is just as good as heighten for that usage (until it gets fixed).

    Oh, another thing that is governed by spell level is difficulty of concentrating on it. Higher spell levels are harder to concentrate on. That also works in the way where any metamagic increases it, not just heighten. That one may be considered either a bug or a feature. :)
     
  10. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    I'll probably only use it for charm spells and the like. I still kind of regret taking it though. I thought about trying to edit my game to replace that feat, but I'm not sure if I want to go that far.

    An unrelated question: I redid the Moathouse battle and chose to take Lareth with me this time. Upon returning to Hommlet, he left my party. Is he gone for good or does he pop up again later?
     
  11. Endarire

    Endarire Ronald Rynnwrathi

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    @JDR13
    Lareth will likely return later to attack you.

    Some people have very liked Heighten in ToEE, but I haven't. Metamagic in general in ToEE seemed meh to me.
     
  12. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Sounds like I got them mixed up then. Harder saves is good though - take some devastating lvl 1 spell like Charm Person and add +many to its Save can certainly be a game changer.
     
  13. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    I weaseled it a bit by saying "in principle" ;) The AI follows the same rules, but isn't smart enough to take full advantage of them. I.e. it won't attack and then back away with 5ft step, or use 5ft step to slide into a flanking position like you do. I think currently the most it will do is move towards the next target if it downs a PC, including 5ft step if in the middle of a full attack (I've seen bears do that).
     
  14. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    I have had enemies flank me, but it was probably only because I was already engaged with another enemy in front of me.

    The only enemies (so far) I've seen use a 5ft step were the skeletons in Emridy Meadows and (maybe) some of the human guardsmen in the Moathouse, and it was only those wielding reach weapons.
     
  15. JDR13

    JDR13 Member

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    About the Moathouse ambush...

    If I didn't trigger it by killing Lareth when I first meet him, can the ambush still happen later in the game? Also, is that the only opportunity to engage Zert, Kobort, etc, other than attacking them in Hommlet?
     
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