Although they can be used with Weapon Finesse, rapiers are Medium-sized weapons for a medium-sized character (Dwarf, Elf, Human, 1/2-Orc). They are large weapons for Halflings and Gnomes. So, with TWF, the penalties for dual rapiers ahould be -4/-4. My Elf Ftr-Rog seems to get only the penalties for a light weapon in the off-hand instead of medium, IE she gets -2/-2 instead of -4/-4. While advantageous to her, it's not by the rules, so it's a bug. ~
The object size entry for rapiers is "size_small" for all rapiers (except the spiritual weapon one) in ToEE is there a reason for this? I think (but I may be wrong) I read somewhere that that a small character who has a rapier (sized as medium) in the primary hand could not wield a second weapon in the off hand as he needed to wield the rapier with 2 hands. While, yes it is bugged, the current situation is better than the way it was (small characters forced to weild rapiers in both hands).
But that's the roolz, isn't it? Don't forget that in 3E Gnomes and Halflings are SMALL. Really, really small, like 2 feet tall to maybe 3 feet max. They CANNOT wield a longsword, rapier etc without using two hands. A medium-sized weapon is one size category BIGGER than they are because they are SMALL. So to use TWF, they MUST use a short sword and a dagger and so on. They cannot lift bastard swords and two-handed swords (Great swords) AT ALL. Cheers ~
I was refering to this thread. However as the normal rapiers appear to have been changed to temporarily fix the problem I have changed the rapiers to medium sized, and the tiny rapiers to small weapons. just unzip these files into your data folder. Is there any reason for having tiny rapiers? off hand weapons for small characters?
Exactly! Or for using sword and shield with 1H weapons (as Medium have to be 2H for these little shrimps). They would do less damage, though, say a Small rapier would do dagger damage and a Small dagger would do maybe 1d2 or 1d3. But the Small and Tiny rapiers would have the normal critical threat range for medium rapiers. EDIT: (Actually, I think TINY rapiers would not count as Gnomes and Halflings wouldn't make them - maybe Pixies? They'd have daggers etc. But I suppose if they found a Pixie rapier that did 1d2/1d3 damage, they'd be set)./EDIT I don't particularly like the 3E Halflings - they are more like 1E Quicklings than Tolkein's Hobbits. But they get quite a stack of racial bonuses (as do Dwarves and Gnomes) so it's offset by the STR reduction and small/tiny weapon wielding and having to use Medium weapons two-handed. Elves, on the other hand, got the short end of the stick. They aren't as good at Surprise or Sneaking or finding Secret Doors etc. And they just get weapon proficiency for swords and bows instead of the equivalent of Weapon Focus which they used to get. Thanks for the patches. Cheers ~
But the rules are clear, now. In 2nd Ed, how did anyone but an elf find a secret door? I know people made up various houserules, but there was nothing in the books about it. They're still better at sneaking than humans due to the Dexterity bonus. The thing is, how useful was that old bonus to an elf who wasn't a fighter, ranger, thief, bard or some multiclass varient thereof? In 3rd Ed, yeah it doesn't help warrior elves, but being able to use those weapons, especially bows, is incredibly useful for the rest. Almost every sorcerer or wizard I make in ToEE is an elf for the bow proficiency.
10 minutes active searching per 10 feet of wall, chance to detect = 1/6. Canon. Or was that First Edition? Should get +6 for active Search (secret doors, not traps), +3 Passive Search (not traps) and +2 for active search for Traps. But not as good as they should be (Surprise bonus, don't get a racial +2 to MS/HS etc) The core rules were not clear, but one could assume that an Elf Wizard had proficiency in those weapons despite being a Wizard, by virute of the fact he was an Elf and had had over 100 years to practice before becoming a Mage. House Rule, perhaps... ~
I don't recall seeing that in any of my 2nd ed books. I think the current bonuses are fine. They still get a chance to passively find secret doors, which no one else does, and their +2 to search in general (in addition to Spot and Listen) means a general greater sense of awareness, rather some weird secret door radar. Nothing gets a Surprise Bonus in 3rd/3.5. Everything is handled through Spot and Listen vs. Hide and Move Silently checks. Elves were entirely too powerful compared to the other races in 1st and 2nd ed. Now, they're on-par. (Though as of 3.5 I think dwarves might be too good.) That would be a House Rule. There's nothing stated in the 1e/2e rules to actually grant them proficiency in those weapons.
As I said, the normal chance to detect secret doors might be First Edition (or a Sage Advice correction). I seem to recall Thieves being able to use FT as well, but that probably is House. The rest is extrapolated from the Thieving skill racial modifiers (for MS etc) and the fact that 1/6 = 3/18 and so roughly 3 in 20. So if their 2E passive dectection chance was 1 in 6, I'd have made their 3E chance +3 on a d20 for a Passive Search. 2 in 6 equates to +6 and 3 in 6 = +9 (well, +10 but we are rounding down) But then, I'd have given Rogues the base scores as well, so 60% CW base would be +12, 25% PP base would be +5. But I think the idea is that base scores like that weren't needed because the relative DC would be attuned to the actual skill level of low level Thieves. I find them too weak, compared with the other demi-humans. It's like they over-compensated because of so much bleating about Elves being broken. I realise that. That's precisely why they should have a racial bonus to MS and HS. Naah, they were as expected because they were ELVES. The other races had much overlooked abilities. But now Elves are the poor cousins of the demi-human world. Except the bit on Elven racial abilities saying that Elves are +1 with sword and bow, for various cultural reasons. It doesn't say Elven Warriors etc, it just says Elves, so it can be justified as canon as it's open to that interpretation. The racial pattern would superimpose on the class template. So you could have a 1E/2E Elven Mage with the equivalent of 3.5E proficiency and weapon focus with a longbow and long sword. He'd still be stuck with his lousy +1 per 3 levels THAC0 advancement or whatever it was and so wouldn't really unbalance anything. Cheers ~
Hi, coming back to the dual Rapiers bug topic, happens that my elven fighter who used to have light weapon bonus in his dual wielding of masterwork rapiers has lost it now that I made them +3 rapiers. [Can't really tell you what mods I have in my game, I run it without the front-end (never could mork on my pc), however some C08 features appear just like the blacksmith quest. Humble NPcs and looting didn't work so I put patch 3 (I know, I know) + Humble Npcs v3. Range attack spells like daze fail, and the Moebius fix against the 511 magic missile/ scorching ray was of no avail. Anyway all this is not the current issue] I'll give a try at renaming the rapiers but meanwhile I post this so you know of the bug + for help... Thanks!
the raipers are now listed as medium weapons so you will get a penelty for using two of them just as you would for using two long swords or any other medium weapon.
Yeah I read that but I wonder why it didn't compute that way when they were non-magical then... Thanks for the reply anyway! :gotmyatte
