Druid and Sleep not as overpowered in ToEE with Co8 than DnD 3.5? Enchantment overpowered?

Yeah, I kind of take for granted that no one is judging Sleep except at low levels, because it's never been good in the long run. Also you can eventually switch to using something else, so there isn't much of a disadvantage to using Sleep at low levels if it's good.

What I meant was that it has disadvantages even at low levels. In 3.0 it...

1. Had a casting time of 1 standard action, same as Color Spray (1 round in 3.5)
2. Had a bigger radius, 15 ft. (10 ft. in 3.5)
3. Affected 2d4 hit dice (average 5) of creatures with fewer than 5 HD, (fixed 4 HD in 3.5)

So it got worse in multiple ways in 3.5, and I've seen people argue that it's worse than Color Spray even at low levels. It can still help you win low level battles, though. And it's safer to use than Color Spray.

 

I've noticed people like Spike Stones and Spike Growth a lot for this game. Are damaging spells, in general, like via Warmage or Evocation Specialist also good for the same reasons and better here than what dnd 3.5 guides say they are or is it specific to those two? Is it because the game is balanced around a level 10 cap or are tabletop Evocation wizards just bad after level 10? Same question I asked for Druids earlier only getting the good stuff after level 10 that's why no one recommends them unlike wizards, clerics, rogues and reach weapon martials but in reverse for Evocation. Are there any other classes gimped by the level cap here just like the Druid? All the prestige classes in Temple+ and most of the metamagic feats like Maximize and Quicken spell seem to be.

 

AoE damage spells are handy in ToEE because there are so many big packs of mobs. I beat ToEE the first time as a team of fireball spamming Wizards.

 

Ok. This confirmed to me that Haste, Enchantment and Charm is overpowered, bucklers and Detect Magic are underpowered, and Light Pick doesn't exist, only shovels which the UI both says has 20x2 and 20x3 crit while light Pick is 20x4.

Not really asking if Sleep is OP or not. I can already guess what it's like in DnD and its limitations based on the guides. Just asking if Sleep is weaker/much weaker than DnD because NPCs can easily wake them up.

Also there seems to be an awful lot of Strength reducing ability loss compared to the others. Are Finesse Fighters better in this game if Fragarach/Scather didn't exist?

 

Finesse is mostly for Sneak Attackers who get their damage bonuses mostly from sources besides ability scores.

 

That's why I'm asking if Finesse Rangers and Dao Monks and Swashbucklers are goated or do they still suck or I'm overstating the disease and they're not common at all or strength is still important for the damage.

 

It all depends on how you are looking to play: It's certainly possible to build a Dex-based combat-orientated character who does a lot of damage, particularly since you also control the crafting done by any spellcasters in your party, and are not limited by what you can persuade fellow-players to spend their hard-earned on XP for your benefit. So you can plan on kitting your Dex-based fighter out with Keen, Holy, Wounding weapons of your choice, possibly as a pair using Two Weapon Fighting. Strength is still somewhat relevant: while Combat Reflexes is Dex-based and only a single feat, you only get additional attacks of opportunity if they are triggered. Great Cleave, on the other hand, allows you another attack each time you drop a foe, but requires 3 feats: Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave. Power Attack gives you the chance to add your Base Attack Bonus to damage rather than to your hit chance. In most games, that's a balancing act; the existence in this game of Fragarach and Scather means that if you use them, you always hit and can thus always put all your BAB into damage. Don't use anything in your off-hand and you add twice your BAB. Consider a basic fighter at 15th level. You start out with a decent strength score and add to it with your attribute increases, and by the time you're 15th level, let's say you have 18STR plus a +6 item (Hedrack's gloves, or a belt) for 24. You hit automatically, and add twice your BAB (30) and 1.5x your STR bonus (10) to each hit. Clearly worth having. Alternatively, say you've made my favorite Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw (Rog3/Swb12). You have BAB 14 at 15th level, 8dice of sneak attack (and an arcane caster buddy who ensures that you always start any big fight with Greater Invisibility in play). If you've invested heavily in Dex, finesse is your friend, but on the other hand, if you've also invested in the feats to have Great Cleave at this point, wielding Scather is two hands is still a very effective option, since if you have the minimum of STR to qualify for Power Attack (13) then 19 is available with a expenditure of money, and always hitting means you can add twice your BAB to damage. Personally I don't accept Scather these days unless I'm limiting myself in a another way (solo run, no tier 1 caster, other limits on magic).

With regard to specific spells: Spike stones and spike growth are excellent in this game because they stay in place for a long time and the majority of foes need to close with you. Big barracks of bugbears on level 2 of level 4? Make them pay a heavy tax to charge towards you. Then lay down a Cloudkill, and they have no choice but to charge towards you or die where they stand. Add in a Stinking Cloud and there's a chance that when they do get to you, they can't attack. More straightforward Evocations such as Fireball, Ice Storm and Cone of Cold do damage to everyone in an area at a certain time, but it's reflex save for half and some foes get reflex save for no damage, and they have effectively no duration. Sleep is pretty good at low levels (spiders seem particularly suspectible) but it scales poorly with level advancement (tougher foes not affected) and the addition of Aid Another to the combat AI means that affected foes are out for a short period rather than the duration of combat, at a time when an awake enemy using their turn to wake a comrade is making reasonable use of their action (they use their action that round to Aid Another, so you get a free shot. But you're only second level, so it's one swing, and you miss, and now there are two goblins again), rather than later, when giving up your action more reliably means you won't live to get another. More generally, spells that incapacitate are good because evening the odds temporarily is often enough for you to win (Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud all good); Summoning is weak at low levels because of duration, but summons do give you potential for extra attacks and they absorb damage that would otherwise be taken by your PCs. Higher level enchantments go one further, since you subtract someone else's attacks and HP from the opposing team and add them to your own, and have the advantage of being available to bards so your principal arcane caster can continue doing their thing while the bard suddenly gets a new killer trick.