Darley, worst built sorceress ever

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by taltamir, Apr 19, 2010.

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  1. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    Her spell AND feat selections are just utterly awful.
    And as a 10th level sorc there is very little you can do to fix her (with a wizard you can give them scrolls, then select a new spell loadout... and you can live without good feats).
    She also insists on wearing a non magical necklace, preventing her from using a +6 to Con necklace.

    Does she actually have anything to say or contribute to the party in terms of plot at least? as far as I can see NPCs in TOEE are either escort missions, or have a background, but no plot development.

    EDIT:
    Actually, she is an "illegally" build character. A level 10 sorcerer should know the following amount of spells:
    SL0 9
    SL1 5
    SL2 4
    SL3 3
    SL4 2
    SL5 1

    Her spell known amount?
    SL0 0
    SL1 3
    SL2 2
    SL3 3
    SL4 2
    SL5 1

    She is short by 9 cantrips, 2 level 1 spells, and 2 level 2 spells.
    As for the spell choices:
    SL1:
    Charm Person - useless spell.
    Magic Missile - craptastic at low to mid levels where a bow outdamages it, obsolete in high levels where it doesn't do enough to matter. A bad spell all around. Should have gotten grease or something good.
    Mage Armor - Bracers of armor provide superior protection and don't waste a spell slot. You should be staying out of combat anyways. And if something closes on you, that extra +4 isn't gonna mean much. You should have a useful spell instead. This spell should only be used as a prereq for crafting bracers of armor... by a wizard. Never actually prepared as it is a waste of a precious daily slot.

    SL2:
    Blur - Actually a decent spell in PnP... not sure how it is implemented in TOEE because there are much better spells at this level, such as glitterdust and web.
    Cat's Grace - gloves of dex are better. This spell should only be use to craft gloves of dex.

    SL3:
    Vampiric Touch - Touch range for a squishy means you fail.
    Blink - Same as blur, a decent defense spell that is entirely unnecessary, the best defense is standing behind your tank... which you should buff. Also control the terrain via web and the like. haste is distinctly missing here.
    Summon Monster 3 - Summon monster only gets useful around summon monster 4 (although SM1 is good for "disarming" traps)... ANY summon monster spell becomes obsolete very quickly as you level up. Thus it is a terrible choice and a terrible waste.

    SL4:
    Dimension Door - Only teleports the caster across the map. Not nearly as useful as the PnP version... besides, with the efficiency of CC vs dumb AI this is never, ever needed.
    Stoneskin - A very powerful buff, but costly (500gp per cast) and as such used only rarely. Leave that to the wizard or cleric and get something else.

    SL5:
    Mindfog - if you fail a will save (and you only need to make ONE, not one every roud), you take a -10 to future will saves? why not use a "will save or lose" spell instead then and conserve a spell slot? The other effect is only dangerous to a cleric or druid, and that is if you fail the will save (clerics have the best will saves in the game) you also take -10 to wisdom... however they would not prevent them from casting spells as they should have maxed out wisdom anyways... so they should still be able to cast ~5th level spells or so, they just lose a few bonus spells. And are unlikely to fail it.
    EDIT: I have had my bard fail it due to friendly fire, he took -10 to will but his wisdom was not reduced... as such I conclude the spell to be bugged and completely worthless:EDIT

    PS. while her spell loadout and feat selections are horrendous, her skill selection is excellent and I wouldn't change anything about it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2010
  2. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Bad? You must be kidding. She's an excellent buffer, especially for vanilla where you'd get her when your party is 1-2 levels below hers, so you can't spam Stoneskin yet. And who cares for cantrips? Also, in case you didn't notice many NPCs in TOEE are "illegally built", giving them options that your normal characters don't have access to. She's a fiend, so iirc has some resistances and higher HD (she SHOULD anyway, I forget how it is). As for the necklace, some other NPCs do a similar thing, too. Also, I think vanilla didn't allow crafting all those buff items, so there's your answer.

    Also, your opinion on some of the most useful spells are, hm, curious, but I guess everyone has their own playing style. Or maybe you just didn't realize it yet. Have you been playing TOEE for long?

    Charm Person - great spell if you take Spell Focus in Charm. Most big bad grunts have very low WIS, hence low will throw. You should have seen my charm-specialized sorcerer destroy the Temple with its own troops.
    Magic Missile - Always hits. ALWAYS. Whereas a bow on low levels almost always misses, since you don't have the necessary feats yet. On high levels, every missile has its own resistance penetration check, making it an efficient way to chip away at deamons and such where other damage spells fail - since it's not subject to damage resistance, evasion or saving throws; pretty much anything except resistance. Fight Balor to understand.
    Mage Armor - Good luck getting bracers on level 1. Anyhow, it's a great spell to help your spellcasters not die in round one of battle until you're able to craft bracers +3. Kind of useless on high levels, but ohwell.


    Blur - Web is useless on high levels. Blur is a great buff.
    Cat's Grace - there's other things you may want to wear on your hands. Like gloves of strength for fighters or whatnot. IMO, shouldn't rely on crafting buff equipment for the whole party.

    Vampiric Touch - Darley's pretty buff though. I remember double-classing her to a fighter and giving her the Frostbrand, and she did better against the Balor than my original fighter. So, not quite so squishy. Also, good spells have touch range. Ever try Ghoul Touch? A great (often better) alternative to Hold Person. V. Touch is OK but not great, well, like in most RPG games I've played.
    Blink - TOEE had haste? I don't think it did... Not every battle allows you to control the terrain, and more often than not the enemy WILL get to the spellcaster as you will eventually find out...
    Summon Monster 3 - Any summon monster + Spell Focus + Augment Summoning = win. Even SM1. Great meatshields and such. I once had a winner team of two sorcerers, one for charming, one for summoning..... For Darley specifically, I usually end up sacrificing the slot for lower-level spells, but it has its uses.


    Dimension Door - can save your life when you're surrounded. And you're often surrounded.
    Stoneskin - There's more money than you can use in TOEE. Additionally, due to an unsolved buff, SSs STACK in TOEE (thus, you wanna really spam them). I'll leave you to rethink its usefulness.
     
  3. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    She is missing a ton of spells known... thats not exactly a good thing. She shouldn't be that gimped compared to other sorcerers.

    No, they are just correct. I am basing it off of research of competitive character optimization experts on various forums. Especially brilliant gameologists and OOTS.
    Some spells are just fail, others are awesome.
    but I am not just basing it on PnP info, there are some distinct and VERY important differences. For example, freedom of movement item is 4,000gp in TOEE (available as ring or wonderous item craftable at level 3), but 40,000gp ring (craftable at level 12) in PnP... making it invaluable. Reach weapons do not have the inability to strike near, enemies are in swarms making great cleave ridiculously awesome (normally useless in PnP), grease is interpreted to NOT be countered by freedom of movement AND there is no balance skill in TOEE making it an uncounterable spell at any level, and web can be cast without regards to achoring and support.

    Tough enemies are NOT PERSONS. They are monsters. As such they are totally immune to the spell. Believe me, I tried it.

    pfft, always hits for pathetic damage; when enemies literally have HUNDREDS of HP. You know what also always hits? my flaming + frost + icy burst + shocking + shocking burst +3 longbow (greater invisibled rogue), and shortbow of same enchantments (bard), and crossbow (wizard), and longspear (cleric), and glaive (fighter/barbarian). And they hit as many as 3-5 times per round for ~40 damage each time (more if crit). On a good round my enlarged fighter does ~7 AoO with
    Besides which... a sorcerer/wizard is a GOD, s/he has GOOD spells to cast that END the encounter. They always hit because they have enchantments up the wazoo.

    Why in the world cast magic missile when you can cast web, grease, haste, glitterdust, and other EFFECTIVE spells. And not to mention that with gloves of dex +6 and +3 enchantment on crossbow the wizard usually hits with it also. (I wish bracers of archery worked right so I'd have itirative attacks)...

    But anyways, casting magic missile is a waste of a slot, using a crossbow is just burning rounds for the wizard when he is not really needed. Those level 1 slots are reserved for enlarge person, the most important spell in the arsenal. 2 castings of it every morning (cleric and fighter; the meleers), and 2 castings of it in reserve in case the others run out or dispelled. The other level 1 slots all go for grease. I COULD prepare some other level 1 utility spells, such as protection from alignment. But every round that your arcane caster casts a cleric spell he is a chump.

    Oh dear god you actually use it at level 1?
    it lasts 1 frigging in game hour, that is NOTHING! And if you are in a proper formation your wizard never gets attacked, AND you are wasting your FEW precious slots... level 1 you only have a few slots, you NEED those to cast enlarge person and grease. level 3 and 4 you NEED those slots for web (also known as I win; especially with vest of escape) and glitterdust.
    Level 5 and 6 you NEED those slots 3rd level slots for haste (it is the only level 3 spell you should be preparing for a while... at least until your bard and cleric of travel can cast it too; and then you still need a few of it prepared).

    I really can't fathom what you are talking about... Even at the highest levels web rules. Did you know that EVERY TIME a create tries to break free from a web it provokes an AoO?
    An enlarged fighter with a reach weapon has MASSIVE reach, have it start with good dex and give it gloves of dex +6... watch as you make 7 AoOs a round from people moving through your threatened area OR breaking free from web OR trying to stand up from grease... sometimes the same creature will manage to trigger several of those, getting up and then breaking free in the same round... its a massacre... and of course your great cleave gives extra free attacks.

    Hold person sucks, persons are squishy and easily killed, your rogue with longbow (elf right? for the automatic detect secret door rolls) ALWAYS goes first thanks to massive dex, 3-5 attacks (haste, feat, etc) each one triggering a backstab will slaughter any PERSON you fight (if not, the rest of your party will)... the TOUGH opponents are never PERSONS. and thus totally immune to hold person.

    As for going into melee and doing better than your fighter.... that is just sad... how bad is your fighter built? she doesn't have combat reflexes (extra AoO), she doesn't have good BAB (extra attacks per round), she is immune to enlarge person (not a person, I tried) making her range craptastic.

    Actually that is EXTREMELY rare, and requires them to provoke an AoO from both the cleric and the fighter (both enlarged with reach weapon)... not to mention completely impossible since starting at level 3 i plonked a web on MY guys (and often a grease nearby) while being immune to it...

    On the rare blue moon case someone reaches my wizard... tumble lets her escape, she has tons of HP (amulet of +6 health plus a good starting score), she has good AC (bracers of armor +5... which ARE expected at level 10+ BTW, which is what we are discussing here), and she has tons of dexterity (+6 dex gloves, plus a good starting score)

    In TOEE haste is sheer and pure awesome... it gives you 1 extra attack on full attack per round per person hasted. (unless they are using a crossbow)... So your fighter makes another attack, and so does your cleric, and so does your rogue, and so does your bard... haste increases in power awesomely as it:
    1. Lasts rounds/CL
    2. Affects 1 target per CL

    So yes, there is haste in TOEE and it is sheer and utter awesome. A level 10 caster casting it gives 4 other party members 10 extra attacks each over the next 10 rounds... thats 40 extra free attacks, thats ~ 1600 extra damage per casting (assuming the fight lasts that long, it shouldn't).

    Summon monster 1-3 are just fail. Duration is 1 round per CL, and the monsters from that list are pathetic. They only get decent later on. Regardless, my gripe with it was specifically that it goes obsolete... darley should have taken summon monster 3 at level 5... but she should have swapped it out at level 7 while taking summon monster 4, then swapped that out at level 9 while taking summon monster 5... sorcerers and bards get to swap out spells, they should use that ability.
    I definitely approve of having the LATEST summon monster... not for their pathetic damage output, but the big elementals do provide a bit juicy target and help you control the battle as they stand there and soak damage.

    I am never surrounded for more then a round... hasted fighter of level 6-10 has 3 attacks per round, each deals ridiculous damage, and with the other buffs s/he has enough attack to hit anything, do massive damage per hit, great cleave through everything, free attack on web and grease, and AoO 7 times per round (16 starting dex, +6 dex gloves, AoO =1+dex bonus total thanks to one feat investment)...
    I try my damn hardest to get surrounded and when I do it results and EVERYTHING surrounding me dying a horrible death as I deal 1000+ damage in a single round.
    A wizard high enough level to use dimension door to escape should never have to bother casting it. (and in my last play-though I haven't had to cast it even once...)

    I said myself that stoneskin is one of the awesomest buffs there are... it really is. There are few defense spells as good, it is really awesome and it is worth the cost (which is only 250 per cast in PnP btw, not 500gp)... however, 500gp is expensive enough for you to reserve it for the fights that matter, wizard, druids, and clerics are all better choices for casting it since its so situational (sorcerers don't have enough spells known)...
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2010
  4. Necroticpus

    Necroticpus Cthulhu Ftaghn!

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    This min/maxing seems much like vitamin supplements. I think most everyone would rather eat a good ribeye steak than to suck out all the nutritional value of it and just take a pill with the same properties. But, to each his own. I've never had any real problems beating the game on any level. I don't use many buffing/debuffing spells at all except during specific encounters, like the failor. Never really needed them. Haste is the only spell I almost ever use as a buff. That alone is enough to completely murder any encounter in the game. For me, the only reason to use others is to experiment and see if you can get different results and to jazz it up a bit after you've beaten all enemies in the games as well as Zuggtmoy hundreds of times.
     
  5. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    with a well enough built party after I got a few levels under my belt i usually don't need to use all of those together either... on a typical battle i just slaughter everything. Occasionally i will use grease OR haste OR web etc... but normally the items and build are such that I don't need to...
    Heck, web+vest of escape is epic win but I stopped using it later because it was too good. (and did you know flaming weapons cause it to blow up?)

    my beef with darley isn't just a matter of min maxing, but that she has some of the worst possible spells and build imagineable, worthless feats, worthless spells, missing spells knowns... She does have a PERFECT selection of skills though.

    Her one and only level 5 spell is bugged so it doesn't actually work properly and is utterly worthless. she honestly has absolutely nothing to do in battle...

    mmm, btw, for some reason every single wizard or sorcerer in the game, which is, darley, burne, burne's apprentice, and that apprentice guy in the homlet inn... they all have a dagger, and sometimes a nice +1 dagger... a wizard using a dagger is suicide. Wizards should use a crossbow, to hit things from afar when they are not casting spells.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2010
  6. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    actually, let me revisit her spells. I actually included their lack of value at level 1-9 in the analysis before which made them seem less crappy then they are. Remember that she is a level 10 sorceress recruited by a balanced party who is level 10+ (probably 12+, as she is found in the most difficult node, the last place you should fight before attacking hadrack and finishing the game)
    So lets look at it through the prism of a level 10 sorc being picked by a balanced party of level 10 (remember, sorcerers get to swap spells, so she could have swapped her weaker spells for better ones as she leveled):

    SL1:
    Charm Person - nothing is a person at level 10.
    Magic Missile - 5d4+5 damage.. you can do better.
    Mage Armor - you got +5 bracers of armor... not only can you craft them, but you actually looted 2 +5 bracers of armor, and many lower plus... so the spell does absolutely nothing

    SL2:
    Blur - 20% miss chance against a single touched target.
    Cat's Grace - everyone has better gloves of dex by now (and I do mean everyone, even the full plate wearers benefit from the extra dex due to increased ref save and extra AoO), so it does not stack.

    SL3:
    Vampiric Touch - Touch range for a squishy means you fail.
    Blink - SELF ONLY protection buff
    Summon Monster 3 - Obsolete at level 10.

    SL4:
    Dimension Door - SELF ONLY escape spell
    Stoneskin - A very powerful buff, but costly (500gp per cast) and as such used only rarely. Leave that to the wizard or cleric and get something else.

    SL5:
    Mindfog - if you fail a will save (and you only need to make ONE, not one every roud), you take a -10 to future will saves? why not use a "will save or lose" spell instead then and conserve a spell slot? The other effect is only dangerous to a cleric or druid, and that is if you fail the will save (clerics have the best will saves in the game) you also take -10 to wisdom... However that is broken and doesn't work (and wouldn't be worth much if it did)...

    So lets now list only the spells you will actually cast:
    SL1:
    Magic Missile - 5d4+5 damage.. you can do better.

    SL2:
    Blur - 20% miss chance against a single touched target.

    SL3:
    Blink - SELF ONLY protection buff

    SL4:
    Dimension Door - SELF ONLY escape spell
    Stoneskin - A very powerful buff, but costly (500gp per cast) and as such used only rarely. Leave that to the wizard or cleric and get something else.

    Now lets remove the spells that solely for protecting the sorceress herself as they do nothing to help her contribute to the battle / party and merely serve to demonstrate how much of a dead weight she is:

    SL1:
    Magic Missile - 5d4+5 damage.. you can do better.

    SL2:
    Blur - 20% miss chance against a single touched target.

    SL4:
    Stoneskin - A very powerful buff, but costly (500gp per cast) and as such used only rarely. Leave that to the wizard or cleric and get something else.

    And we are left with 3 spells. The pathetic MM, the pathetic blur, and the awesome but expensive and thus rarely used stoneskin (which can be cast by other party members).

    woo, go darley, cast that MM... round after round after round... of course, you could say "lets remove spells which are pathetic"...

    in which case her arsenal shrinks to 1 and only 1 spell...
    Stoneskin.
    1 useful spell in her entire spell known list. And it is expensive, situational, and any well build party has got a reliable source of it before finding darley (although I had 2 sources of it, I never actually used it... I was so overwhelmingly powerful and needed the handicap...)
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2010
  7. Necroticpus

    Necroticpus Cthulhu Ftaghn!

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    Wizards and crossbows I feel are a waste of time and a bother having to pick up bolts. A wand of magic missiles hits everytime for more damage than any crossbow, and wizards miss with crossbows quite a lot.

    I also never use a sorcerer. They don't have a decent spell selection and can't learn from scrolls and can't use spell meta feats. Give me a wizard every time.
     
  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Min/maxing should be saved for PCs. NPCs have back stories and reasons for things that have nothing to do with min/maxing (eg Ronald having ranks in Perform and Appraise, because he's a singer from a business family). Thats what makes them interesting. If you don't like them, play 8/0.
     
  9. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Didn't try well enough I guess :p I guess there's fewer around on level 10, but if you dragged around a few from earlier, it's worth it. Assassins, guys from Nulb encounter, and Smigmal especially all make great "extra" NPCs. If you're evil, you could also charm someone like Otis. Not as good as Dominate, but still awesome, and helps your other sor/wiz save spell slots for other stuff.

    Meh, where's the fun in that? Also, good luck crafting that in vanilla :p

    Also, I used a somewhat less buffed shocking shocking burst +3 bow in the Balor encounter before, and he usually shrugs it off to a mere 0-8 points of damage, which is even less than MM and has you waste ammo.

    Most of the high-level spells fail often even with penetration. What offensive spell would you use? They all have only one SR check, and allow for other saves (e.g. reflex for Fireball). Tough enemies have good saves, good resistances. MM is useful if only for the Balor fight.

    Wut? Am I missing something? Where?

    If someone gets caught by it first, that is. Usually, unless it someone weak and you shouldn't even bother with web ad hurl a fireball instead, the enemy would just shrug it off due to either high saves or SR, and walk right through. Same for Grease. Although Grease is a bit more awesome since it at least can trip Giants once in a while, when web just fails.

    I still can't see how Stoneskin is expensive in TOEE, where you end the game with 10k+ platinum anyway, if you don't keep magic weapons and items that don't work for your party. Maybe it's expensive in PnP, I don't know.

    Buuut, anyhow, as Ted here says, it's always your option to play 8/0. IMO, it's boring though. And min/maxing gets old after you've beaten the game more than 5 times... What's the point of replaying if you've seen everything? I usually make thematic parties, or think up backstories for PCs, etc...

    Nah, man, Sor's are lazy Wizards ;) Also, they work a lot better as a one-purpose turret, something that a Wiz can't do. Also, I thought you COULD use the meta feats? Maybe I'm wrong, I rarely use those anyway, there's better feats to take...
     
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Diff'rent strokes and all that ...

    Personally I don't have wizards or sorcerers use crossbows because I think they look stupid doing so and it bothers me to think of a wizard lugging around a big old clumsy crossbow. I also have everybody wear boots because I'm offended at the notion of their feet becoming injured or just dirty if they don't - even though there is no practical in-game benefit to wearing boots. But that is where my play sensibilities lie, while others may be more pragmatic. The point is, part of the beauty of ToEE is that it can accomodate everyone's play style. I don't have to MIN/MAX if I don't want to, and others don't have to worry about dirty feet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2010
  11. Avatar_do_Grafite

    Avatar_do_Grafite Established Member

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    The problem here is that Taltamir plays ToEE exactly as it is: A PC game. Ausdoerrt - as I and a lot of other people here in the forun - uses to play much more like the pnp version. I never craft weapons/armours in the game, for instance, just becose there are no player that will take the feats to do this in D&D. To create that awesome all-kiling-frosting-bow-from-hell will took months to finish, and in a pnp time is very important factor to deal with.
    This discussion is a little pointless just becose there are a lot of ways to see how thinks works in game.
    Fom me Darley is good. Not excelent, but good. Ya will find her near of the end of the game, anyway, where the money to cast Stoneskins dont really matters so much, and the other buffs are good to give a try. Now, if ya want a really GOD wizrd-like, just build it from zero on the beggining of the game and let Darley there, where some players shall have a useful - or maybe at least decorative - place to her on the group.
     
  12. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    not only do I have everyone wear boots, I match boot styles, glove styles, clothes, and hats to create a unique look for each character.
    and then I give them a crossbow...

    later on each and every one of those items gets replaced by magic items though. by end game everyone is wearing boots of speed.

    As stupid as a crossbow looks on a wizard, a KNIFE looks sillier. At least give them a quarterstaff if looks are the issue here.
    The purpose of giving them a crossnow though is to make them do something useful (plink away) on those rounds where they aren't casting anything.

    You raise a good point which I did not address. I pointed out how obsolete her spells are at level 10. However at level 10 you are luggining around so much gold that 500gp per cast is literally nothing.

    Buffs, stack them sky high...
    for a wizard that is haste, enlarge person, greater heroism, etc...

    As for strong character not caring about web... Avoiding entanglement is a reflex save with DC of 12+int mod, and is repeated every round in the web. If you are entangled you can use strength to break free, and at higher level everyone succeeds on this one every time... HOWEVER, even if they successfully break free they STILL triggered an AoO... an enlarged fighter with a reach weapon has MASSIVE range (equal to that of the final boss; 20 feet)

    I am saying that she is totally dead weight. Besides, why does she have to be penalized by being missing 9 cantrips, 2 level 1 spells, and 2 level 2 spells that a level 10 sorcerer SHOULD have? what is so awesome about her that requires her to be nerfed that way?

    Her SL5 spell is BUGGED and does not actually work... so its worthless, her level 4 spell selection is actually fairly decent. She combines a very solid buff with the ultimate escape spell, aka she has "something for everyone". I never need to use said escape spell...

    if she had her the amount of spells known she should have she would probably be a lot better.
    Anyways, even if you are a casual player she isn't min maxed, she is min-min-min-min. Why do I say it three times?
    min-min means she trades drawbacks for more drawbacks and bad design.
    another min because her most powerful spell is bugged.
    another min because her character has been nerfed to have 13 spells known less then a sorcerer of her level is supposed to.

    Who cares about vanilla? this is the co8 forum, a modding community. Obviously I am discussing the co8 mod, latest version of it to be specific...

    Also, you mentioned in vanilla you get her at level 8? I reached level 10 in vanilla very early in the temple... the firenode is the last and most powerful of the nodes and is the last place you will go before finishing the game. You literally pick her up, fight the balor, then fight the final boss.
    You could first make a trip to town to give her equipment...

    It is a game, and it has many differences to the PnP version... for example, CC, the most powerful strategy in PnP http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002
    Has been made even MORE powerful in this game as following

    1. Crafting makes your fighters a force to reckon with, so controlling the battle lets them maximize their already impressive powers.
    2. There is no balance skill, and freedom of movement has been ruled to not affect grease (there are lots of arguments about that one); thus crease has no counter
    3. There is no flight
    4. Breaking free from web provokes an AoO
    5. Web requires no anchoring and always fills the full area of the spell.
    6. Freedom of Movement items cost less then 1/10th their price in PnP. And are craft-able at level 3.

    PS. I would hardly call it a PROBLEM that I play a PC GAME as a PC GAME... I am an experienced PnPer, I just keep the two separate. If anything, my knowledge of what works comes originally from PnP before being applied to the game...

    As for taking 6 months... its fairly normal to take 6 months of in game time to reach very high levels. If anything it is a problem that it is so easy and quick... not taking the time to craft and doing the whole thing in a few weeks is just ridiculous.

    One from senshock, I don't remember who dropped the other pair... both got sold because I had already crafted my own bracers by then.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2010
  13. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    When you play a new game w/o a walkthrough, you can't really know all of that, can you? ;) I went in through the Temple Tower (party level 3-4) into level 3, explored around a bit, got the Prince, then dragged him down to the Hedrack fight (party level 5-6), then went on to explore the nodes, first earth, then (as it happened to be) fire. NOW I know to put Balor off till later :)

    There's nothing wrong with that style of playing, frankly I used to do something similar early on... But it's gotten old after a few playthroughs. If you end up sticking with the game for a long time like most people here, you're likely to start exploring other options, even if they don't seem to perfectly maximize party potential.
     
  14. taltamir

    taltamir Established Member

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    I am not quoting a walkthrough I am describing what happens.
    to enter the nodes you must pass through the throne room of the greater temple and fight the last major boss. He is at the bottom... you simply cannot expect anyone to do it... at most you will go to fire node first and recruit her right away, and have her with you for all 4 nodes and then the final boss.

    still, you are already level 10.

    Don't patronize me. I have played the game vanilla, then co8 v3, v4, and various v5s.

    And its not a "playstyle" for her to:
    1. Be recruited by a level 10+ party
    2. Suck
    3. Only be around for the nodes and the final boss.

    those 3 are simple facts, not playstyle preferences. Starting a game with two wizards and now cleric? thats a play-style preference. Trying to sneak your way through the game? likewise...
     
  15. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Did you read my post? I was talking about my first ever playthrough, so no way to know what happens. I also detailed how it's possible to skip stuff, so that I managed to be around level 8 recruiting her and fighting the Balor soon after.

    Why are you angry again?

    Anyway, I was talking about the other comments in the thread about the whole min/maxing thing, emphasizing which is a playstyle... A playstyle I don't get, frankly, because I find that it gets boring to use the same strategy every time, but your opinion is as good as mine.

    And I mean, in the end, if you hate Darley so much, ditch her or mod her yourself into a death machine of choice :shrug: I usually add her for flavour and whatnot. As Gaear mentioned, there's fun in playing crappy characters too, if you wanna put it that way. Also, she's not the only late-game NPC, the Nodes are full of them (I can count at least 4-5 off the top of my head), and none of them are great builds either. They're all there for atmosphere mostly and backstory on the Temple nodes. It's anybody's choice to use them for fighting or not, just like with any other NPC.
     
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