Co8 4.0.0 VS 0rion's complete fixes.

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Allyx, Nov 1, 2005.

Remove all ads!
?

I'd like to see the following mod combination.

Poll closed Dec 31, 2005.
  1. Co8 all the way, I don't like 0rion or his mods.

    6.1%
  2. Recalculating skill points the way 0rion did, is a must!!!

    60.6%
  3. I'd want the feat recalculations, in any new Co8 patch.

    48.5%
  4. 0rion's fixed save bonuses is great.

    57.6%
  5. Why not change the skeleton priest into a ghost?

    15.2%
  6. I love the shops in 0rion's mod.

    9.1%
  7. That ranger loving idiot messed up my favourite NPC's!

    36.4%
  8. I like 0rions recalculated ability scores.

    42.4%
  9. I'd love to see 0rion's mod updated to include the other fixes in Co8 4.0.0.

    21.2%
  10. Who's 0rion?

    21.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    4,926
    Likes Received:
    219
    Most people agree that 0rion's work has SOME good qualities, but many are reluctant to try the whole package because other parts are not to thier liking. So I was wondering, what's the best way to merge the two mods?

    Please Select all options that you feel apply.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2005
  2. Moosehead

    Moosehead Rubber nipple

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
    i misread this one: "I'd love to see 0rion's mod updated to include the other fixes in Co8 4.0.0." as

    "I'd love to see the Co8 4.0.0 mod updated to include 0rion's other fixes."

    dyslexic much?

    lol

    anyway, so i guess that vote doesn't really count.
     
  3. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes Received:
    0
    Allyx, this poll was a great idea for obvious reasons.
     
  4. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,013
    Likes Received:
    29
    Part of what's in question here is not just whether or not some elements of his mod were a good idea, but whether or not they were implemented correctly so as to avoid Orion's patented "QTDs."

    Personally I'd like to see the non-creative stuff (fixes - skills, feats, etc., not Bertram the gay pirate dentist ranger who never goes in the woods) completely redone by some other more competent modder.
     
  5. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    4,926
    Likes Received:
    219
    @ Moosehead, no probs dude, mistakes happen.

    @ Krunch, Thanks.

    @ Gaear, when I first read 0rion's change log I didn't think "Wow this mod is great", I thought "there's some good stuff in it, but what should we keep? And what should we scrap?" This poll is just a way to find out what the comunity wants to do with it. If no-one else wants to do the work, I'll do it myself (I think I have a better track record than 0rion for working, CTD free mods).
     
  6. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,013
    Likes Received:
    29
    Roger that, Al.

    btw, I misakenly selected "I like 0rions recalculated ability scores." instead of "That ranger loving idiot messed up my favourite NPC's!". Sorry.
     
  7. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,634
    Likes Received:
    1
    As I havn't tested his mod I can't say for some of the choices, but then again I havn't had much time to play the game in the last wee while - I don't even have the shop map going :shy: some of his stuff sounds like its good and some of his stuff sounds questionable but then again who am I to say thats wrong, I don't even know the rules.
    anyway here's what I think...

    Good:
    -all skill points for all creatures have been re-calculated
    -all saving throws for all creatures have been re-calculated. This was necessary because the programmers took total values, including feats and stats bonuses, directly from 3.5 monster manual and wrote down them in the protos, while the game re-adds bonuses from feats and stats to savin throws values for the second time. This happened in positive or in negative. For example, giants had reflex throws lower of what they should, since they applied their -1 from DEXterity twice. That's why it was so hard to charm monsters or sometimes too easy to strike them.
    -removed all extra Hit Dices from monsters that are instead supposed to level up with character classes only, like ogres and bugbears. Extra HD have been converted in character classes.
    -re-addedd the tons of missing feats from monsters and creatures and re-distributed feats to NPCs with character classes as long as it was possible, following role-playing. This includes weapon finesse and weapon focus for monsters and animals, where needed.
    -removed redundant spellcaster levels from monsters with spell-like abilities but that can't level up as characters. They were not necessary since, after testing, the tag special_domain X uses monsters HD as spellcaster levels.
    -monsters that could result too weak without class levels have been increased with extra Hit Dices, following instructions from the monster manual. If they increased their size, they gained bonuses and maluses consequently.

    -fixed light maces of striking that now are light maces and not heavy maces (important for weapon finesse).
    -fixed the small bug with Livonya's woodcutter shop that didn't allow to scroll the list.
    -fixed a problem with masterwork bucklers and padded armors that added an unproper bonus or malus to attack rolls with weapon finesse or skill points.
    - restored all attributes to fiendish and celestial creatues and Archon Lantern, that now casts circle of protection from evil and beams searing light against monsters to simulate its natural spell-like abilities.
    -fixed attacks for all monsters. Elementals now do have both attacks at the same attack bonus, many monsters now use the right dice for damage and do not apply full strength bonus to secondary attacks anymore.
    - some of the monsters that have had a severe checkup are will o'the wisp, Galeb Dhur, eye of the deep (now beholder kind), Hydra (now cryo-Hydra as suggested from the paint, has fast healing 10 and regeneration 5/fire), werewolves, jackalwere (they are not licantropes but shapeshifting aberrations), Glabrezu (should not use his stench that paralized himslef too), leucrotta, Lyv's skeleton priest that now has been changed, for role-playing resons oly, to a temple veganceful ghos because skeletons don't have any intelligence and loose all characteristics from their previous lives. Other monsters have been fixed as well. - (for some reason I thought that the skelleton priest was changed into a ghast or lacedon. thats why I was complaining)

    -disabled looting for NPCs that joined the party to escape from the temple, reduced looting to 1/5 of money only (to avoid troubles with items) for all the ones that looted.
    -Darley is updated to Alu-Demon of 3.0. Since it was unfair to make her a level 10 sorceress (especially with the lever uncapper) and since Alu Demon has the fighter as favored class, now darley is an effective 9th level sorceress with spells oriented to closed-combat fights and her extra alu-demon spell-like abilities, plus 1 fighter level for weapon proficiencies. Note that sorcerer class should stack with alu-demon natural spellcasting abilities.
    -Zaxis has a better selection of spells and feats accordingly with his level, including more balanced stats, more suitable for a bard of 5th level (no big changes)
    -Pintark and Tuelk now are a 4th level melee barbarian and an fighter/archer for compound longbows. A bit more useful than before.


    Not sure:
    -fixed all monsters and NPCs stats (STR, DEX... natural armor and CR) according to temple of elemental evil (AD&D) adventure book and monster manual. Monsters with character classes now have the elite rolls (15,14,13,12,10,8) plus racial modifier (and some changes in the case of "leader" attribute: a small boost to charisma only to role-playing reasons), and all NPCs with character classes have the +1 bonus for every 4 class levels.
    -added missing skill points and feats for human NPCs.

    -fixed a bug with Scather and Fragrach that made them to act like non-magical items,
    -fixed Excalibur that now works like a regular holy Avenger, as it should be and as it was at the very beginning of the game.
    -added my set of silver weapons and special armors to the blacksmith in Hommlet. (not sure if you should be able to buy silver in Hommlet)
    -added some small, minor magic abilities to Ooghrist's emeral belt (may be reverted easily), Gnome Ring and Unicorn ring, so that now they are not completely useless. (personally I don't see that the rings need to do anything but thats just mho and if I'd never played ToEE before I'd never know anyway)

    -Otis is a ranger that uses the ranger archery bonus feats and his chainmail now is changed into a chainshirt (3.5 rangers do not have proficiency with medium-size armors)
    -all other NPCs have stats and feats like weapon focus and improved critical that exactly mirror their original ToEE description.
    -Grank, that was a cleric of III level, had been changed to cleric III, black guard 7, to make him more challengening or a more useable choiche. It is a test that may be easily reverted from the protos deleting the paladin levels (equal to black guard), sneak attack and divine grace. If doing so, Grank's skills must be at 7 and he has 3 feats total.
    -Taki is again a fighter that uses brute strength
    - Bertram... I never had a problem with him being a ranger, it made more sence to me if he was, he just doesn't seem to be the fighter type.
    - Inverted the feats between Rianna and Serena, including different selection of skill points. Since Rianna is a wore and is supposed to be able to use some sado-maso tools, she is proficient with the spiked chain, the closed weapon to the whip, and has feats to move stealthy. Serena is instead a thief, catched by Mona, so now she has the skills to be a thief (stealing, unlocking, pick-pocketing) and has the feats to be an archer, or whatever. I personally didn't like how these girls were set up, they were basicly the same. I'm not sure how I would change them...
    - restored the appropriate level for some NPCs, since: evil PCs may leave and attack the party when injuried; Teruko and Kobbort join only a 4 members party, Furnok is an expert gambler and, being a rogue, does not provide alone such a big difference in melee fights. More, he cant' be used a as a diplomat, thus is useless in homelet in the very first quests and may be hired just before leaving for the temple.
    -Rufus sucks, this is not a change.


    Bad:
    -prince Thrommel is now a paladin, with equipment worthy of him.
    -Elmo is now a ranger that fight with axes. (he gains a special small battleaxe too 4704, while his chainmail and big shield are now a chainshirt and buckler with same enchantment)

    Merchants:
    -the following traders have been modified:
    .. Brother-smith: masterwork gears added to standard trading window, so that they may be used at the beginning of the game and not only to craft magic weapons and armors. The giant's head quest moved for more rare items
    .. Burne's inventory has been enriched and moved to Pishella due to the impossibility of modifying his mob file
    .. Otis's inventory has been changed completely, allowing only ammos, masterwork gear and +1 magic gear. The reasons behind this are that he is supposed to have greater blacksmith skills than Homelet blacksmith and to make him more useful to the player. From a role-playing viewpoint, the selling of magic items *spoiler* is easily explained with the fact that Otis co-operates with canones Y'dey, the Herbmonger, that is a cleric and may enchant weapons and armors for him and, since he is under cover, he has the duty to sell stolen magic goods to keep his cover on. Note that in the world of Faerun, +1 items are not powerful enough to create any suspect. Note that, being a ranger, Otis may enchant weapons by his own.
    .. Herbonger shop has been enriched with more potions and other useful items.
    -Jaroo now has a student that will sell druidic items as reward for a quest. This merchant will not respawn items.


    altho some of these maybe good things, we need to talk about it more to decide what merchant changes are good and what ones arn't helpful
     
  8. Morpheus

    Morpheus Mindflayer Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    539
    Likes Received:
    1
    I corrected the vote count, though even with my admin privileges I couldn't delete your name next to the option.
     
  9. Moosehead

    Moosehead Rubber nipple

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
    i also personally think that the skeleton priest fits in perfectly with the "spellstitched" template (i think in monster manual 3.5 II), albeit at a higher level than the template sugggests. but still, it would make perfect sense that it was simply a spellstitched skeleton that was a priest (evil?) in life.
     
  10. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have yet had a chance to test any of 0rion's latest mod, but I have maintained all along that the rules fixing parts sounded good (on paper at least) and may have a place in a future release. All the other stuff he changed to fit his idea of what the game should be, especially the merchants and the skeleton priest, are fine for an independent mod, but have no place in a Co8 release unless the community decides they add value to the game. My personal oppinion on these other changes is not favorable, and I feel they should be left out.
     
  11. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    12,285
    Likes Received:
    209
    This was a good idea Allyx.

    Personally, I'm voting to include his rules-based stuff and dump his content-alterations. I have no opinion on his 'shop' as I haven't tried it, but i have no objections to it either (other than it should be the pot-boy).
     
  12. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    In general, liked Cujo's breakdown.

    I'd keep the stat changes for monsters. They're how I'd do the creatures if I was converting the mod to 3.5. My impression of Livonya's changes is that she actually used more extreme stats than the "elite" series for some of the bosses, so i don't know what the balance implications are. And human NPCs should get their rightful feats and skill points.

    The skeleton priest might as well stay. Spellcasting skeletons are canon in Greyhawk (see, for example, module L1, The Secret of Bone Hill).

    The changes to Otis and Elmo are good. I don't really see the need for the other changes (and making Thrommel a paladin is nuts).
     
  13. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fix what's in keeping with the rules and doable; ditch the rest. The whole ghost vs. skeleton thing was mainly a philosophical debate in the first place, so who cares, really...a spellcasting skeleton is actually better than anything else that might fit.

    As for Thrommel being a paladin...well, that's exactly what he was in the original module, so why is it nuts? Or are you making a funny that I'm too tired to get? You refer to an old school module to back up one suggestion, yet won't take an example from T1-4 when that's the very one we're discussing. Not trying to be harsh about this, but your logic escapes me...:scratchhe
     
  14. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,634
    Likes Received:
    1
    my reasons for thrommel not being a paladin are really simple. Its all because of Fragarach being CG, if it was LG or changed to LG then thrommel should be changed in a second but he should be able to use his sword the best out of everyone.
     
  15. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    12,285
    Likes Received:
    209
    What he said - yes Thrommel SHOULD be a paladin, but then Fragarach goes berserk - we could change Frag to be LG (perhaps - I doubt it) but its regarded as CG right down to the Hextor priest's opening rant.

    ie, making him a paladin causes far more problems than it 'fixes'.
     
Our Host!