Character creation question

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by NoxNoctum, Oct 22, 2013.

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  1. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    Every really good DM I've played with has never stuck to just one set of rules.

    Our present DM has 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 rule sets with a few "Special Roll Tables" all in the same campaign and it freaking rocks!

    Oh, and he also has a Special Event, (one time it was an "Ex-Wife demon) that always happens at about the 3 hour mark of each session.
     
  2. Oleg Ben Loleg

    Oleg Ben Loleg Established Member Supporter

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    I want to create a bard with an emphasis on enchantment spells (dominate, tashas hideous laughter etc). Last time I tried that I hardly succeded with that. My Bard kept on wasting his turn using spells that had no effect since opponents made succesful saving throws most of the time. How can I make that more effective? As far as I know the spells of the enchantment school have something to do with wisdom when calculating saving throws. But I think for bards it is charisma that determines the difficulty level of their spells, isn't it? Well can someone sort that out for me?
     
  3. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Yep, Charisma for Bards.

    Also remember to use the correct spells, Enchantment is quite specific about which spells affects which creature.

    If I recall correctly, having 5 or more ranks on charisma skills (Intimidate, Bluff, etc) give sinergy bonus to spells, though I'm not sure it will work in the game.

    You can always weaken your enemies will with Cleric's spells first too, then use the Bard's tricks.
    Or buff your Bard's charisma, either with his own spells, or a Cleric. Items could buff your Bard's charisma too, if you combine everything you'll be getting lots of bonuses (I tend to do this with the Ranger)
     
  4. Oleg Ben Loleg

    Oleg Ben Loleg Established Member Supporter

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    Ok, thanks. Is it only charisma with a bard or does wisdom has also an effect on opposing save checks?
     
  5. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Charisma on the Bards sets the difficulty (i.e. 14).

    The spell description says which save the target needs:
    -FORtitude (based on constitution, usually for stuff that affects the body like poison)
    -REFlex (based on dexterity, for things that usually need to be avoided like explosions)
    -WILL (based on wisdom, for things that affect the mind like charming)

    So, to answer your question, Wisdom would be involved yes, but it's from the part of the opponent.

    So, if you want to throw some Enchanting spell, the opponent needs high Wisdom (WILL save) to resist your DC (difficulty). While a orc might have a low Will save, a Chaman will be more difficult (because it's the equivalent of a Cleric, focused on Wisdom).
    Generally speaking, savage races can have high will score, since Wisdom it's usually atributed to wild life survival.


    Your initial DC is quite low usually, if I recall correctly it's 10 + spell level + attribute bonus.
    For a Bard, having a Charisma score of 18 (+4), a level 1 spell difficulty to resist it would be:
    10 + 1 (spell, let's say sleep) + 4 (bonus from 18 cha)= 15.
    It's not a particularly difficult save, but it can be improved if you boost your bard first, or throw a Fear-like spell with the cleric (fear affects will save rolls for example).
     
  6. Oleg Ben Loleg

    Oleg Ben Loleg Established Member Supporter

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    Thanks Half Knight, it's a lot clearer to me now how it works.
     
  7. nyarlathotep

    nyarlathotep Merry Murder Maniac

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    http://www.d20srd.org/

    This above site comes in quite handy when in need of D&D mechanics. Granted, it's for the p&p version, not for ToEE, but most of it is applicable.
     
  8. Gehennis

    Gehennis Established Member

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    Don't forget to apply spell feats to your bard as well- Spell Focus Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus Enchantment, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration will all help...
     
  9. Oleg Ben Loleg

    Oleg Ben Loleg Established Member Supporter

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    Thanks Gehennis. And thanks for the very useful link to the D&D rules.
    Another tricky question: Does anyone know when you multiclass a druid with a monk does the druid gain the wisdom AC bonus from the monk while in wild shape?
     
  10. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    Short answer, no.

    He stops being a monk and starts being whatever animal he changed into.
     
  11. hellblazer

    hellblazer Established Member

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    In toee yes because the engine only changes the players object icon not the actual object type i.e. spells that affect humanoids like enlarge person still work.
     
  12. Oleg Ben Loleg

    Oleg Ben Loleg Established Member Supporter

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    Ok, have played the druid with a monk lvl and yes he gains the monk bonus while in wild shape. Although he probably shouldn't, as Sirchet corectly pointed out.
     
  13. marc1967

    marc1967 Established Member

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    Keep in mind that creatures that are not humanoid make a saving throw against Tasha's Hideous Laughter at +4 since the humor doesn't "translate" as well. So an Ogre, such as Lubash in the moat house, would save at +4. This may be why the spell isn't working as well.

    It took me a while to figure out why certain creatures were saving at DC 12 instead of DC 16 against my sorceress's Tasha spell

    The 3.5 rules state that any creature not of the same type of the caster would get a +4 save, so it should be a normal save (as I am interpreting the rules) when cast against Gnolls and Bugbears, but an Ogre (type "Giant") would get a +4. However, in ToEE I think i saw that the DC was reduced against those guys too. I can't remember for sure. Ogres definitely get the +4 though.
     
  14. nyarlathotep

    nyarlathotep Merry Murder Maniac

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    well, the srd has a monster compendium, you can see who's humanoid & who's not :)
     
  15. Oleg Ben Loleg

    Oleg Ben Loleg Established Member Supporter

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    It's quite "logical" that a spell like Tasha doesn't work against ogres that well and not al all against those unfunny undead. What I never really realized was that my charisma level as a bard strongly influences the success of a spell like Tasha. And so a spell like Eagles splendor, that I never used so far, becomes really valuable to enhance the difficulty level of a bard enchantment spells.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
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