Butcher of Hommlet?

I'll stop spamming after this, I promise...

1. Irrelevant; who says they can't strike first? That's right up there with who draws first. The game doesn't allow for anything else; I've said as much in an earlier post...it's a combination of poor programming & limited capabilities to translate this game into a crpg.

2. My reference was clearly to Sir Knight, not aanalore's pc...so I will tell you that. I called him by name. Please read carefully.

3. If you love a good debate, then make a good argument, and I will admit it. Just because you have a passion for your point doesn't meant that it is correct, or that you have won me over to it in a convincing manner.

4. And regardless of what they decide to do, and no matter how they try to avoid it, it will end in bloodshed; involving the PC's, because they are the only ones capable of handling it. And woe be unto them if they don't get them first, because they for sure will:

A) Send an assasin to kill them when they sell off Lareth's gear;
B) Visit their house in Nulb with a powerful group of murderers to bring death if the first plot fails.

This is just an advanced example of what we're already talking about. I'm still not convinced, but (and I've always conceded this...read the play) there is a process which they must follow, which is better illustrated by this example. The Zert / Toruko episodes are just not that highly developed.

5. Blue, I'll take it anyway people are trying to give it to me...and if they get back worse than they got, well, that's their tough luck. You know that crap you said was meant to antagonize me on a personal level. And you know why. Something I confided to you & a few others on the mIRC. So let's just drop that right now. You made it personal to try and win a debate. And I called you an 'ass' for it. I still say that's the case.

End of rant, and end of spam.

 

I've got no problems with people's opinions. I have a real problem when people try to "give me the business", and they seemingly haven't even read what I've been typing, or simply discount it out of hand. Perhaps they've gotten mad, and are popping off a quick post just to "save face" or to "keep up their cred."

If I'm wrong, I admit it. I just don't think that anyone has presented a convincing enough case yet to convince me otherwise.

No, Gaear, I'm not mad about anything that's been typed here. I just don't care for the spirit in which some of it has been said. And I'll continue to say so as long as Sol doesn't ban me. Maybe that will be the measure of this, then? At least, this thread ought to be locked, or better yet, deleted. It serves no useful purpose.

Just my opinion.

 

Before this thread is locked or deleted, let me appologize to you Spike. I am an ass, and I've never tried to deny that. That fact doesn't excuse it though. Whatever was said on IRC that may be pertinent to my posts here has slipped my mind. If my posts do relate to something said there, I appologize for that as well. I try to never use things said in personal conversations as "ammo" for a debate.

I think we both have valid points, and I do see the logic in yours. And I feel we would both agree on that other Paladin issue in another thread.

You know, I stayed out of this thread for a long time because I knew it would turn ugly. For the life of me I don't know why I decided to join in at all. I should have just stayed out of it.

 

Bravo Gaear, good idea.

For my part, I apologize to Spike for insinuating his asinineness, I really do. I thought things were being taken personally on all sides too, but Spike, though you and I disagree on this particular debate- The real and true reason for this particular forum, I bear you no ill will, you argue well and valid points, as I hope I do. I second the group hug thing.

That being said, one question remains--

Aanalore- did you get any good advice or insight out of these posts? I mean pertaining to your original question.

aanalore?

aaaaannnaaaalllooorrree.....??

Did we scare 'em off?

 

Paladins uphold the Law, through Goodness. They promote Goodness, through the Law. This does not mean that Paladins ARE the Law, like Judge Dredd. Like a farmer, sherriff, ranger or cleric, they can't just decide to kill someone who has committed no offence just because they don't like the way their aura looks, like some Republican lynch party, no matter HOW much they believe they are right. It takes more than some misguided self-belief in your own infallibility to be a Palaadin and promote their ethos. What's their defence going to be? "Ooh! He was a VILLAIN, Sir!" If the characters had been LG, NG, NN, CG or in any way "innocents", the Paladin would have irrevocably fallen as well. In fact, he should have fallen anyway for Unlawful murder, which can be atoned for by an arduous quest.

Killing a PROVEN Assassin who is "resisting arrest" is another matter, as the evil character would probably strike first. Killing him when he is in hand-cuffs would cause the Paladin to fall IMC. At the very least it is dishonourable and Chaotic. As well as Unlawful if not downright Evil.


~

 

I (with some measure of surprise) believe not...!

===========================

'Blade, you're a little late to the debate, so I'll catch you up...most people here are something like 99% in agreement with what you've posted, others are 110%...me , I'm at about 80%. To break it down further with regards to where we disagree, I'd say it's 100% with a few things, and 50% with others, while it's 00% with the rest.

I'd go into more detail, but it's likely to start all the bullshit debating over again, and I think that would be more than a lot of folks here care to read.

 

Yep! Blade just read this whole post- it was interesting!

 

So many are intent that they are NOT doing anything evil AT THE MOMENT.
So the spell must detect great evils that they have already commited that caused it to "stick".

St. Cuthbert is a god of retribution. The law in the town follows his commands. A paladin of St. Cathbert is devine law to them, just as the inquisition would be devine law for a 15th century european. The inquisition/paladin might not be in the right according to certain modern western mores, but he is certainly the a greater law.

And someone mentioned that evil is just not caring if another person gets hurt, and refusing to help them.. so its not that bad... This is by definition neutrality. Evil required you to be the one doing the hurting.

Keep in mind that in dnd alignment are actualy existing physical forces greater then the gods themselves. A cleric can be a follower of an alignment instead of a god. And so on.

It boiles down to, would the townsfolk accept it or not.

I DO agree that the paladin killing the evil person who is doing nothing NOW is butchering him. But he is not butchering the town. He is the butcher of evil in homlet, not the butcher of homlet. And that action is CERTAINLY not enough to justify every being in the city and several out of it attacking the party with the intent to kill.

 

my 2 cents

How a Paladin reacts to the presence of an evil character depends on the mindset, attitude, and beliefs of his or her deity and the level of the Paladin's understanding [or interpretation] of his or her deities' WILL and DIRECTION about such matters. It just depends...a Paladin could just walk away and keep an "eye out" (for one type of deity beliefs) or a Paladin could just kill the evil character [for example, if the evil character was extremely evil] (for another type of deity beliefs).
* This line of thought is IMO.

How the game handles these kinds of situations is limited due to the fact it is a game written by imperfect people where Atari pushed Troika developers too hard and too fast for the game to make a targeted deadline for a Go Live project release date to sell the product.

[edit] PS: If there was just one deity for all Paladins in all D&D games, one could say exactly what the appropriate and expected actions should be and how situations should be handled. But, there is more than just one deity for Paladins, even in ToEE.

 

AAA---men.

 

Oh yea... another thing about doing "evil at the moment"

[Scenario]
So a cop sees a man walk into a grocery store, the man is obviously buying groceries... he recognizes him as a serial killer wanted for 27 murders, and many other crimes. The man is NOT commiting any crime NOW. But he is obviously comits murder on a regular basis... would the cop let that man get away? NO!
[/Scenario]

Lets presume the man has resisted arrest the last time he was spotted, killing the lone cop who identified him. If that is the case our cop should call for backup immidiatly, and should he even suspect the man recognized his intenet (for example, by looking at him funny) shoot him. Our cop could probably get away with shooting him on the spot saying he thought the man was reaching for a weapon... With such a situation he will not even go to trial or receive a slap on the wrist, unless the incident is filmed and showed on the news... in which case it depends on racial themes and other issues that might cause it to become an incident.


Normally however, the cop would not just SHOOT him. But thats just because of the nature of our laws. A paladin in a medieval society isn't bound by the manga carta and the american bill of rights (or whatever passes for legal protection in your country). Most likely most trials are done without the presence of the convicted, who is presumed guilty unless proven innocent, and is judged within a couple of hours by a magistrate with absolute power... that is, if he is arrested by the town gaurds, a paladin will just put him to death...

Put your beleifs of what is right and wrong aside for a moment, if you consider this a roleplaying game then recognize that the world as described is very black and white in order to avoid moral dilemas... the characters know who is evil, they kill them, thats it.
There is a reason why it is called escapism.

While not everyone who plays this is an escapist, the system itself caters to them, and as such its base rules are very simple from a moral standpoint. Evil is Evil... Good is Good.. you kill opposite alignment and there is no reprocussions from someone of your own alignment.

Not to mention a paladin by its description, class function, code, and whathave you is a the typical spanish inquisitor given godly backup. Me as a person loathes Paladins... My characters admire their dedication to elimating evil with efficiency and protecting the innocents.


PS. It specifically says that lawful people, while respectful of the law of the land, usually follow a HIGHER law which takes precidence. Even the paladin must only RESPECT (not follow) the laws of the land.. and only to a certain degree (as long as they dont interfere with his duties as a paladin).
Otherwise a paladin could never attempt to depose that lich ruler of so and so kingdom because rebellion is against the law.



Oh and to throw a bone to the ones who think this should NOT be done...
I would actually agree.. a paladin should not kill someone because he reacts to detect evil.... BUT ONLY because detect evil might go off if that person is carrying an evil item (perhaps for destruction of said item) or if that person has been beset by a very evil curse... Ofcourse, if the paladin does alittle bit of digging around he WOULD find out if the person is evil or just cursed/carrying an item... (peep on them in the shower with his magic eyesight for example... that is a joke btw).
This however is open to debate based on the shoddy explanation of the spell...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

If this means you can actually TELL if its a creature, object, or spell that pinged on your evdar then you should go ahead and kill... if you CANNOT then you must first ascern weather it is the person who is evil, or if he has just been cursed...



I would also like to point out that even without detect evil I immidiatly knew those two were up to no good... the only reason I didn't slay them is because I could NOT get them out of town or into the open with their evil... (same for the evil traders)

Even with my evil party i could not touch them, since they are always in the tavern... (I usually recruit a victem, take them to deklo woods, kick them off the party, and lay the smackdown on them... for loot and XP... erm... loot and pleasure... ).

 

the way i've always used detect evil pnp has been that it not only showed IF there was evil present - it also showed just how EVIL that evil was.

of course, the paladin wouldn't be able to tell *exactly* what a murderer had done, but most certainly be able to tell the difference between an abusive, lying and cheating husband and a diabolical murderer, or maybe even an evil doppelganger.

 

Re: Butcher of Hommlet? will go down in history as one of the more memorable (place your adjectives here) threads.

Laff!..and why can't we use 511 magic missiles again?

 

What if a blackguard suddenly decided to become good - "sorry Tharg, I can't go raping and pillaging today, I've changed alignment - TN atm. I guess that in a few weeks when I get to LG I'll have to kill you for being CE"