Butcher of Hommlet?

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by aanalore, Jan 2, 2006.

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  1. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    So you just flash your Paladin badge and say they were evil, and all is good?

    A Paladin walks into a town he's never been to before, where the townfolk have never heard of him before, and is immediately a respected member of the community?

    People have been known to impersonate FBI agents. I'm sure you can impersonate a Paladin. And Detect Evil can be fooled as well.

    And those hick Sherriffs actually do get uppity about the Feds coming in and taking over. As does the local judiciary.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2006
  2. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Paladins aren't cops...and they can't even draw their friggin' swords until the evil guy does???? That is nothing less than ridiculous, and you know it.

    If you want to write a better story than your original submission, please do so; but don't presume to tell me what mine should or shouldn't say. Sir Knight has obviously been there for long enough to have discovered & begun exploring the moathouse. He is a follower of St. Cuthbert, just like Burne & Rufus...and the Chief Cleric and half of Hommlet, for that matter. His exploits are known, 'cause he's been around the village for the duration of this adventure, bringing treasure & loot back along with tales. I wrote enough in my little play for you to get this, so don't even try to say it's being changed to suit my part of the discussion. He is known to be a paladin of St. Cuthbert, and a man of honor.

    Blue, you're way beyond belief with these replies. It kinda sounds like you're trying to piss people off. I know you like to play devil's advocate, but you're being something of an ass.
     
  3. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    You mean constabulary, right? Local Judges don't deal with Federal Law Enforcement Agents. They have their own courts for this.
     
  4. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    Ah, yes, here we go again :)

    First, I must say, Spike, everyone tries to be nice, but calling people and ass is just asinine in itsself. And it pisses people off. I truly think Blue is doing the exact thing you were-attempting to get his opinion accross completely. We do enjoy your banter, and opinion, and your skits put in for illustration as well, but allow us ours without berating us please.

    Second, and also in response to Spike's very well said response to one of my posts, yes I said in MY game, if I were DMing, I would have busted aanalore with the rep too, and this is certainly not MY game, you are most correct. That was just my opinion at the time, and I have graciously conceded there may certainly have been roleplay possibilities in which the reputation would not have been deserved. Your fairly put example(s) included.

    However, I do stand on my last few position statements to the effect that-in direct defference to this game and it's rules- aanalore earned the reputation because she broke certain established rules of the game, namely attacking any NPC unprovoked.
     
  5. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    You got me there. I should have said "If Zert had taken the first swing, that would be a different story." But you and I both know he didn't. The Paladin struck first. Of course the problem was killing that evil monk guy in front of all those witnesses. The Paladin struck first there too.

    Is he? I don't see any mention anywhere in the original post or any follow up by aanalor of who this Paladins diety is, nor how long he has been around, nor what quests he has performed. So don't tell me it hasn't been changed to suit your part of this discussion.

    You are right, I do like playing devil's advocate, and I love a good debate. If I seem like I am being somewhat of an ass, perhaps it is because you realize that I have a valid point and you just don't want to admit it.

    When the conspiritors who are sabatoging the construction of the castle are revealed, Burne says "We will have to take this up with the town elders." He does not say "We will have to go kill those evil bastards." Even with proof (albeit the party's word against Remos and Gremag's) the cry is not for a swift execution but for taking it to the villages judiciary. Which implies something about the laws in Hommlett. Which the Paladin is supposed to respect. Which leads me back to "My god told me he was evil so I killed him" not being an acceptable defense of the Paladin's actions, nor something to be tolerated by the townsfolk.

    I am not trying to piss people off, Spike. I am trying to make a point. Try not taking this so personally.
     
  6. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    No, I do mean judiciary. There are fights over jurisdiction between local and federal courts all the time.
     
  7. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    I don't agree with some of what Spike is saying - particularly since Zert etc have no options to flee / surrender (or even draw first, as a villain like Zert might when unmasked) - though of course thats the fault of the program, and werily indeed us modders might like to look at it (Detect Evil on Zert and / or Turuko might see them flee, Kobort stupidly in tow, to later reappear in ambush at an appropriate moment. Though those who read what I had to say on the 'adding vampires' issue might remember part of the 'brokenness' of Detect Evil is that it doesn't respond to san_spell_cast).

    BUT I must say Spike's reading of how a Paladin of St Cuhbert would behave is completely consistent with the portrayal of said diety in the original module. To quote my favourite mp3 from the game:

    "St Cuthbert of the Cudgel is the God of retribution..."
     
  8. Cerulean the Blue

    Cerulean the Blue Blue Meanie Veteran

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    "Retribution" First you have to hav an act to retribute against. Detecting as evil is not a act.
     
  9. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    2nd ed (not sure about 1st ed - never played it) said it better than 3rd and 3.5 ed's...

    A paladin can detect evil INTENT - the intention to perform an evil action in the near future. Thus the predujiced dictoator who is clearly evil by his past actions will fail to be detected as evil if he does not intend to cleave you into little peices in the next 5 minutes... of course taunting him first to make him think about doing nasty things to you first may make him show up as having evil intent.
     
  10. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    the problem with that is that I know someone who never does anything wrong even when they break the law - they don't intend to do evil, they just don't see that what they're doing causes harm to others
     
  11. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    That's what I'm saying, in 2nd ed it was the premeditated evil that paladins could detect not he fact that you are evil.

    Eg a CG aligned character who spontanously decides to be chaotic and punch someone in the face for no reason - that descision is the evil intent. The evil trader on the other hand who fully intends to trade with you is not showing any evil intent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2006
  12. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    Taking up along Blue's lines, Allyx, and playing Devil's Advocate-and agreeing with Spike on one point-but STILL not conceding the whole debate--

    I think you should be able to detect evil, not just only of intent, but of the miasma or "aura" surrounding someone. For instance, yes the CG person who suddenly decides to kill his nagging wife Fruella because of temproary insanity should radiate evil then and only then yes, but also should not the mass murderer, who, though not having killed anyone this week, has such an evil stink about him/her because of the wrong, pain, and evil they have inflicted in the past?

    Again, I think detection of evil "in general" should definitely be possible- but not a reason for conviction and execution! I know if someone had been able to detect my thoughts in the past, say when breaking up with one of my ex-wives for instance, they would certainly detected some evil intent! We all have those stray thoughts, even dwell upon them sometimes, but when you act upon them, or it is painfully obvious (e.g. sword in hand advancing at said Paladins) that you are about to act upon them, THEN you should be considered "evil" enough to be punished.

    There are no dead bodies of exes or inlaws in my back yard, and I know that, though my break-ups weren't perfect, no evil miasma or aura follows me from my thoughts, and even my exes would agree.

    Ted Bundy, or the Greyhawk equivalent, however, should be detectable all the time, and yes I think ACTS not only intent should be an additional determining factor. An insane killer my not thinnk he is evil at all, but the God(s) granting the Paladin(s) the power to detect evils would certainly classify murdering- or even mugging or robbing- in your past as enough of an evil for the Paladin to "detect" and then --NOW HERE IT COMES-- and THEN- WATCH THAT PERSON! Not execute, watch. Be wary of. Yes the Paladin should detect anyone wanting to group with them, because YES they know they cannot consort with someone who is evil, but a polite, "No thank you Zert, and by the way I sense in you great evil, and not only do I suggest you soul search yourself, and work on overcoming that, but be warned that I, and any other constabulary, or Paladins, or followers of (insert Paladin's Deity here) shall be watching you from now on."

    Thoughts?
     
  13. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Calling someone an asshole would not be right. I did not do that; I chose my words very carefully, as I regard Blue as a friend. I said he was being something of an ass. This is not berating him, although he may not like the truth when he hears it, and will give ludicrous examples & make silly comments in an effort to win a point; I say that this behavior is - as you say - asinine; which means he was acting like him something of an ass. Now, I don't give a good GD what you think of it; as it is after all, only my opinion of his actions at some points in this thread. But realize, now, that you've just used the weapons of your adversary to try and best him...what does that make you, hmmm?

    I say it makes you a "Hypocrite". In the nicest way possible, of course. It is, after all, only an observation, and my opinion (...which you said you enjoy, along with my banter and skits), all of which means absolutely nothing. I hope we can still be friends...?

    BTW, I've been 'being nice', and I daresay that I never wanted this alignment debate, but because I was 'being nice', I've been dragged into it to explain posts that I thought were self explanatory to people who don't seem to read them before replying. This even further illustrates my point that he who hesitates, or holds back, or tries to 'be nice' ...is ultimately lost.
     
  14. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Zert is second level. I'm sure he's done things to get there...evil things. And he plans to do more. 'Justice' in this context is 'retribution' against the evil acts of others.

    I left crime out of this statement for obvious reasons...we've got enough to debate here already!
     
  15. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    The courts may argue jurisdictional issues from time to time, but you will never see the local or state court try and keep federal law enforcement from taking a case which they claim to be theirs ands are willing to work. It just doesn't happen. On the other hand, the feds are all the time trying to not take cases offered to them that fall under their jurisdiction because of many and sundry reasons, not the least of which is work load. Had you said constabulary, I would have agreed with you. They (the locals) do get pissed when they've done all the work, and the feds come in & take over, claiming all the credit for the hard work put in by the locals. That happens a lot. But the local judiciary doesn't care one whit what cases the federal cops make & take to the federal courts...unless it lightens their dockets. You were comparing courts to cops, not courts to courts, hence my reply.
     
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