Battles With Issues

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Gaear, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    What are any battles with significant issues that you are aware of? I'm thinking mainly of spellcasting and other AI-related issues here, not "there aren't enough bugbears for my liking" issues. Battles where a spellcaster casts a stupid spell at a silly time or is generally ineffective or whacks away at people with a stick when he should be lobbing fireballs, etc. These can be either vanilla or NC. Please refer only to comparatively major scenarios, e.g., Hedrack battle, Senshock/Barkinar/Deggum battle, Zuggtmoy, etc., and please keep it within the bounds of what they should be doing (not "I want the drow matriarch to be a 19th level monk!"). We would like to fix/tweak any of these by the time v8 rolls around.

    Here is a list of known offenders:

    1. Hedrack battle (already worked on)
    2. Zuggtmoy battle (I tried this recently and saw a rather lot of goofiness)
    3. Senshock, Barkinar, and Deggum battle(s)

    Thanks. :)
     
  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I recently did the Senshock/Barkinar/Deggum battle and had much fun getting pwned, mainly because the elementals kept rolling 20s while my characters rolled 1s (true story. Not just missed attacks, but miscast spells too).

    "I'll come back with a thousand Dismissal spells!" I cried, and I did, which led to problem no 1: the elementals can't be dismissed, I get a floatline saying they are not extra-planar. I realise they hang around and don't get summoned , but that still seems wrong.

    "I'll come back with Superb Dispelling!" I cried. That didn't work for unrelated reasons. A pity - it would have been epic.

    "I'll come back with Heightened Dispel Magic!" I cried, and I did, leading to problem no 2.

    This time I buffed outside (and listened to them buff inside...) then went charging through the door, as is my wont. However, instead of battle, I suddenly found myself in conversation with Barkinar and Deggum. Presumably this had not happened before as the auto-attack had kicked in due to me wailing on factional members on the same level. This time I had gone back out and prepared properly, come back in and gone straight to the room, so I found myself in dialogue.

    "Bow down before us!!!!" demanded Deggum.

    "Nuh-uh: I'm here for Hedarck!" I said.

    "I sense you are telling the truth,"says the gullible and twin-helmed Deggum. "He's in the room down the corridor. Say hi to the Curry Puff for me".

    "Singapore Chilli Crabs, more like" mutters Barkinar, scratching at something.

    And that was that: they just let my Good party, Paladin and all, do as they will. So I hit C before they could change their minds, my Hasted Rogue was first cab off the rank, and he put 4 sneak attacks into Shenshock before he could draw breath. All over bar the mopping up.

    Some how, that doesn't seem quite right.

    O, and problem 3: there aren't enough bugbears for my liking. More of those raging tumbling trippers with reach would be nice.
     
  3. Number99

    Number99 kicking Iuz

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    Not a real issue but something that caught my attention.
    Tiny John with only 69 Hp!? He must have more than that? :yes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2013
  4. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    That's weird ... they are all listed as mc_subtype_extraplanar.

    I'll have a look at that but chances are it is indeed the KOS flag at work.

    :thumbsup: Sounds like it could use some refining.

    Was Senshock actually even involved in that battle? From what I can see, here is the messed up arrangement:

    Daytime: Senshock hangs out in his room with his elementals. Barkinar walks waypoints from the adjoining room he shares with Deggum down to Hedrack and Co. and back. Deggum hangs out in his adjoining room, usually alone.

    Nightime: Senshock hangs out with Hedrack and Co. Barkinar and Deggum hang out in Senshock's room with Senshock's elementals but no Senshock. :scratchhe

    Likely outcomes:

    Daytime: You fight separate battles with 1. Senshock and his elementals, 2. Barkinar either alone in the hall, together with Hedrack and Co., or together with Deggum, 3. Deggum either alone or with Barkinar.

    Nightime: You fight separate battles with 1. Senshock together with Hedrack and Co., 2. Barkinar and Deggum together with Senshock's elementals.

    Very little of that seems to make any sense. The module says that Barkinar and Deggum are usually not in their room except at night, which is the only time Deggum is currently away from his room, and Barkinar is not there either, being busy hanging out with Senshock's elementals and Deggum in Senshock's room. :dizzy:

    The module also says that Senshock will show up to assist with battles against any temple forces if the party is losing. It also says he "maintains a post" behind the main alter, which is the area of the Hedrack fight where in ToEE there is no alter. It doesn't say when he is there, but it says he has a 40% chance of being in his room by day and is usually busy doing crap. (He is the Lord Wizard and quasi High Commander and General of the Temple forces after all. Barkinar is commander of the troops and Deggum is commander of the guards.)

    The module says too btw that the head honchos have daily meetings in that room with the long table on the way to Hedrack's quarters, and monthly meetings with all leaders. I assume the primaries are Hedrack, Senshock, Barkinar, and Deggum, with the Temple chief clerics being secondaries.

    Also there is that whole business with green tea and cocoa puff and Barkinar's jealousy and desire, which incidentally is not in the module. (There is actually scripting for Hedrack to be found with the girls in his quarters, though he is currently never there.)

    ~

    Interesting ... I wonder if we shouldn't try to expand/implement some of this stuff. e.g. we could have -

    • Hedrack, Senshock, Barkinar, and Deggum in the meeting room like 50% of the time by day so you could fight the four of them and the troll guards there.
    • Hedrack alone with his girls in his quarters 50% of the time by day.
    • Hedrack with his gang by night in the normal place (the Culbert and Luz thing).
    • Senshock, Barkinar, and Deggum in Senshock's quarters with his elementals by day 50 % of the time so that it would be a fairly challenging battle.
    • Senshock alone in his room with his elementals by night.
    • Barkinar and Deggum alone in their room by night.
    • Have Senshock appear in any major battle in which he is not initially a part if the party is below x level health instead of just hanging about with Hedrack by night.

    That would provide quite a variety of possibilities as opposed to the current 'this way only!' routine, which promotes the idea of a very stagnant Temple.
     
  5. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    I really like the idea of Senshock just showing up when you think you're putting a beat down on one of the a fore mentioned groups.
     
  6. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Yah, I noticed that a while back. It would be fun to implement but it would a) damage one of the fan's favourite fights and b) lead to weird stuff like Iuz and Cuthbert showing up in Hedrack's bed. Not enough pay-off for the go-wrong moments that would have to be worked around, imho.

    Shenshock was definitely there, complete with his damn Globe of Invulnerability (which swallowed an entire Lightening Bolt that I only wanted to hit the people in front of it....) HOWEVER, I have to confess I am playing 7.2, so please ignore this if it has ben fiddled with recently.

    I had similar moments in both the Fire Temple and Water Temple: no-one wanted to attack me and I had to initiate combat. In the latter's case it was post-reactive Temple, complete with werewolves etc, and all I got was a big room full of people and a bugbear declaring that 'Belsornig is da man and all them other temples was history!" I knew that, because I wiped them out myself :) Then my fireball fizzled :sadblinky
     
  7. cmdw45

    cmdw45 Member

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    I've only played through ToEE once, but I ran into Senshock, Barkinar and Deggum all together in the same room, with a bunch of elementals.

    -Max
     
  8. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    The only weirdness that I have ever experienced with the Zuggtmoy encounter is that I noticed that if you do the encounter with the old woman with only 1 party character in the room (and you choose the dialogue option that has the most detrimental effect on the old woman), then Zuggtmoy doesn't appear so that you don't encounter Zuggtmoy, but if you do the encounter with the old woman and you have at least 1 other party character near Zuggtmoy's spawn point, then Zuggtmoy appears and you encounter Zuggtmoy (she initiates dialogue with the nearest PC and not the PC who was talking with the old woman (who was my party leader (who had the best social skills))).

    Thank you for this information that I wasn't aware of. Unfortunately, it does not coincide with my experineces of playing this computer game. The ONLY occasion that I have EVER seen Senshock with Hedrack was after I encountered Smigmal and Falrinth and let them both escape, then I left the temple, came back a while later, and Senshock was now with Hedrack. Every other time that I have played this computer game, I believe that Senshock has always been in his room.
    In all of my previous playthroughs, Senshock has always been in his room, and Deggum has always been in Deggum's room, and Barkinar has always walked the waypoints between Senshock's room and Hedrack's position. However, in my playthrough of 7.5.0 NC, for the first time that I have ever experienced, Senshock and Barkinar and Deggum were ALL in Senshock's room! In the screenshot below, you can see Barkinar and Deggum (wearing the aqua robe to the west of Barkinar) in Senshock's room and the visual spell effect caused by Senshock having teleported away from the combat (which caused the combat to end and Barkinar and Deggum to stop being KOS with my party).

    I REALLY hope that this is implemented in future! The only trouble that I can foresee with this is that whenever Senshock teleports away to safety during combat, the combat ends as a result, so this would seriously mess up the Hedrack combat if Senshock managed to escape during the combat. I hope that the problem with combat ending whenever Senshock escapes can be resolved one day because it is the part of the game that annoys me the most!

    I REALLY hope that this is implemented in future! It would surprise veteran players (which is always a good thing).

    You can thank (or curse) Sitra Achara for that modification ;) He made that alteration to bring the computer game more in-line with the original PnP module.

    Shiningted, you have a wicked sense of humour! I regret never getting to experience your 'Desperate Housewives' mod.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  9. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Okay, I formally added Senshock/Barky/Deggum to the problem list.

    Thanks. I verified this myself as well - he is always in there skulking around, day and night. Of course this is ToEE though, and his mob very distinctly indicates that he has different day and night standpoints. Only he doesn't. :dizzy:

    I also can't find any scripting-side stuff to indicate that his standpoints are being overridden or anything. (On that note however I did finally discover the reason for Deggum's dual-helmeting - Livonya scripted a bunch of equipment changes into his heartbeat. I've redacted most of these because we can now do this easily via invensource and because some of them seemed really arbitrary. He will be back to wearing chain armor [and one helmet] again. She also did this with Senshock and Barkinar, most of which I think will probably end up being taken out as well.)

    That battle hasn't been (yet), but the Hedrack battle has been in a fairly major way.

    Were you robed? Also they may not be KOS at that stage, as I believe a chat with the presiding cleric is desired.

    Thanks, noted.

    Maybe you were just really lucky and always went there during the day in previous playthroughs. At any rate, I tested that bit too and Deg and Bark were doing like they 'should' - in their chambers or walking waypoints by day. That bit hasn't been changed in a long time as far as I know ... until now.

    The way I have it at the moment is that Barkinar and Deggum will hang out with Senshock in his room by day (presumably laying their evil plans together), and Barkinar and Deggum will retire to their own room at night. Barkinar will no longer wander around. Wandering is kind of cool on its face but in practicality it just means that Barkinar can be easily isolated and dispatched. (Likewise Deggum if that happens.) The only potential issue I can see with this change is if you need to be alone with Barkinar in order to get the stuff with the ladies going. Senshock is apparently staying in his room whether we like it or not.

    We'll see. If it's something other than the no-identified-targets problem, it should be fixable.

    Well it would make the Iuz/Cuthbert thing not happen, true (assuming we turned that bit off - which we wouldn't actually have to), and it would make the big room fight much easier, but it would also add variability. Also I think everyone would love to see a bedded interlude with Iuz and Cuthbert! :p
     
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Updates on SBD:

    • Senshock now has all his potions back, as per the module. They are in his chest however, not on his person.
    • Senshock no longer gets a scroll of minor globe of invulnerability on his heartbeat. (Sorry Liv, that's not in the module anywhere.)
    • Senshock now has the treasure indicated in the module in his chest rather than the random crap generated by invensource with the gems/jewelry indicator. (I hate when they do that. It's how Jaroo ends up with a 'bejeweled dildo +4' and the Nulb whores get virtue pendants from the arch cleric of veluna.) :bored:
    • Senshock's elementals are now all concealed, not just some of them.
    • Barkinar and Deggum have two bugbear bodyguards who now move along with them on their day/night standpoints.

    I tested the dismissal thing on the elementals and I see that it worked on the water one but no others. Will test further. ed. Okay, I was wrong - it works only on summoned elementals. Even adding the extraplanar flag to the existing ones does not, humorously, make them extraplanar.

    I also notice that Senshock and Deggum eventually resort to fisticuffs because they carry no weapons. :roll: This will be remedied.

    I've also tried redoing Senshock's standpoints and redoing the entire process (and starting a new game to test it as required), but no dice. He still stubbornly refuses to move. Must be something internal. Being as we don't really need him to move, however, I guess we can just let it be.

    ed.

    Okay, lesser globe was actually Troika (Liv just added it as a scroll instead), so sorry Ted - you will have to suffer through it. ;) I have revamped Senshock's spell selection to partly reflect the module, Troika, and Liv's modifications. No real game-changers.
     
  11. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    I was wondering how hard it would be to remove the text on a foe that tells us his spell resistance and what defenses he has cast.

    I mean really, can my group just look at one of the guys and know he has protection from elements and a high SR?

    It just seems really unfair to me.
     
  12. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    Um, I've thought about this, and I think that I may have been wrong about only ever seeing Senshock in his room. I think that there was one occasion that I entered Senshock's room with the intent to let him escape, only to find that he wasn't even there, so I loaded an earlier save and did other parts of the dungeon instead, and came back later to find Senshock in his room.
    As I stated above, I have seen Senshock with Hedrack, but it was only on the one occasion, and it happened after I let Smigmal and Falrinth escape, and then I left the Temple of Elemental Evil, rested, and came back to the temple. The screenshot below shows Senshock with Hedrack.
    So, in conclusion, I believe that I may have been very lucky to find Senshock in his room more often than not in my playthroughs of this computer game (in terms of whether it was day or night when my party appeared on the Greater Temple (i.e. dungeon level 4) map and entered Senshock's room).

    Ooo, I second this motion and hope that something can be done about this too. Don't forget that the player can currently see the exact Hit Points that other NPCs and monsters have (both maximum and current Hit Points), so if something could be done about that too, then I'm all for it. One thing that I have noticed in my current role-playing campaign of the PnP module Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is that not knowing how many Hit Points that opponents have remaining makes combats REALLY nerve-wracking!
     

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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2013
  13. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    You could try deselecting 'Show exact hit points for NPCs' in TFE-X. I know it sounds crazy but it might work. ;)
     
  14. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Bah, thats madness! He's mad, everyone! :eek:mg:
    Ahhh, but your DM should be giving some variant of the 'injured / badly injured / near death' feedback on critters that show wounds. In a few of his modules, EGG uses that sort of feedback deceptively as part of illusions etc. ("The dust will waver and fall back if it is struck by blow or spell, as if suffering actual damage...")
     
  15. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    Hah hah, soooo this is what it feels like to be stupid. :p

    I guess it's my fault for not checking if the option ALREADY existed before opening my mouth. :roll:
     
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