Back after a break

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Pygon, May 29, 2006.

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  1. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    What Blue and Ted are referring to is that in Co8 5 MOD, monsters have been made D&D 3.5 rules compliant, including updated attribute scores, PC classes, etc.; Kalshane put on his RulesLawyer1 black hat and went by the books as much as he could. And, when Co8 5 MOD is completed for its final release, you will see even tougher monsters in Co8 5.0.0 MOD than what you have experienced in Co8 4.0.0 MOD.
     
  2. Pygon

    Pygon Member

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    For the record, I am playing 4.0.0, not 4.0.1.

    I do understand that in a computer game that allows quick saves and loads that encounters may need to be harder to force the player the make use of those features and know the encounters inside and out before trying the dreaded Ironman mode. I would just like to see a 3.5 CRPG module that follows the base guidelines (most encounters = EL, some lower, some +1 or +2, boss encounters +3 or +4, not random +5's or up!!!)

    When I started playing again recently, I was in the mood to test out a party build for the module Red Hand of Doom, and just got thrown for a loop when they kept dying and dying and dying in TOEE... unfortunately, this doesn't make TOEE much for a general party build tester, unless of course you whomp on every encounter, which tells you that in many cases you should do quite well with the same party in tabletop.

    My nature party did very well in TOEE, so I'm using that party to go through City of the Spider Queen - but we are having big problems with ability score loss, energy drain, undead and insanity.

    Looking forward to the reworks in 5.0, however :) Always curious to see what's being worked on!

    Oh, and TimSmith, the 6 salamander elders in the Fire Node are another prime example - wouldn't they be like an EL 17 or so? One lesser globe of invulnerabilty and some cones of cold, and they are toast - er, icicles.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2006
  3. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    As Krunch said, the bugbears (along with everything else) have been made as close to PNP as possible within the game engine in 5.0. All the bugbears, gnolls, goblins and hobgoblins wear actual armor now (thanks to scripting by Cerulean Blue) which means no more Bugbears with ACs of 24 that also tumble with no penalty. If a bugbear has an AC that high he's wearing platemail and carrying a shield and won't be tumbling. The ACs for a lot of the bugbears went down, as the numbers assigned to them were pretty arbitrary. I assigned armor based on class (a lot of the humanoids in ToEE have class levels) feats, skills, and AI. So the bugbears with ranks in tumble and rogue levels got light armor, while the bugbears with fighter levels got heavier armor.

    In the end some monsters got tougher, some got easier, and a lot had things rearranged a bit behind the scenes to make them rules-compliant that probably won't be noticable unless you watch the roll window. Bugbear ACs as whole went down, but they've got better ability scores (the ones with class levels were assigned the Elite Array per the rules) and correct numbers of feats and skills to make up for it. You should see some tumbling flanking for sneak attacks from the rogues and cleaves from the greatsword-wielding barbarians if you're unlucky enough.
     
  4. Pygon

    Pygon Member

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    Still working through level 1 of the temple. I managed to beat the Ogre Chief with a well placed Tasha's Laughter. All the battle buffs of the War cleric are nice, too. My party is level 6 now and has suddenly become more uber (two swings and cleave for the pally, and the extra spells help a lot). I'm close to 7th, and might even be 8th before I descend to temple level 2. Then I can try out that stinkin' 22 bugbear room (actually I can't remember the count)...

    In the battles with the temple clerics, their actions make a lot more sense, and they are hitting me with Inflict spells - nasty :) great work on that!

    5.0 sounds like it will be really cool.

    I did run into one qwirk that I don't know if you can fix - when I fought the Lieutenant (you know, the one that readies for approach and smacks you when you get close), I cast Hold Person on him then sent my thief up to coup de grace him - but he still got his approach swing. He promptly died, but it made me yell, "Hey, you're held!" at the screen...

    Maybe I should have taken Craft Arms/Armor for my 6th level feats... oh well.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2006
  5. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    You can thank the now MIA Livonya for that. She did a major overhaul of the game's AI.

    I think this a bug that would require a temple.dll hack to fix. I've noticed similar problems with creatures that are held or otherwise unable to attack still making AoOs. Even more fun, sometimes moving up to a creature with a readied action allows you to take a full action once their action finishes.
     
  6. Pygon

    Pygon Member

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    I took on the 22 bugbears on temple level 2 when my characters were level 7. Took them all down on my first try. It was easier since some bugbears were busy trying to swing at my Spiritual Weapon, and the archers were focussing on my wizard, who kept himself hidden after the bulk of everything else went down. By the way, 22 regular bugbears - EL 11 or so, when they aren't classed. I think there were like 4 classed barbarians in there.

    I'm thinking I should have had my pally focus in greatsword instead of longsword - his dps is quite lacking. I also cast Greater Invisibility on my rogue so she could sneak attack freely, but she missed half the time - should have buffed her with Aid, Prayer and Bull's Strength (or Cat's Grace, since she uses Weapon Finesse). Oh well, you learn.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  7. Pygon

    Pygon Member

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    Got up to level 8 and decided to take on the guard tower. My stupid mage kept ending up in front of my party when we entered the room, but finally I was able to move him towards the door and away from melee. He saved against the silence spells (again, great touches on the silences and animate dead spells), and commenced with the fireballing.

    I made my way into the tunnel, fought Smigmal for a few rounds, then entered a dialog and let her go. However, after resting and returning to the room, she started a threatening dialog with me and started fighting, but she was invisible (again, this is 4.0.0, so if it was fixed in a later version, ignore this), so I couldn't target her or even hurt her with area spells.

    When I fought Falrinth, his globe of invulnerability only lasted a couple of rounds. If that was the fix to keeping it from permanently affecting party members, that's fine by me.

    Then I explored level 3 a bit, fought some seemingly insignificant bugbears near the center and BOOM we all got 6000 XP a piece, straight to level 9. No idea why they were worth so much, but I'll take it. Proceeded past the willowisps and lamia and down to level 4.

    I like how we try to interrogate the trolls :) And neat looking trap in the main hallway. I deactivated it because it scared me...

    I just got done fighting the hill giant trio. The ettin trio is next, then I'll head across for the big showdown against all the ogres and bugbears, and see what this party build can really do...

    I also like how the blacksmith in town requires a giant head before he will sell you masterwork weapons. Earn it, darn ya!
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  8. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Hey Ted, I thought Allyx fixed this for 5.0.0. What the hell??


    :blush: (Sorry.) :icon_chuc
     
  9. TimSmith

    TimSmith Established Member

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    Actually on checking it out its only an EL 13, because the TWO nobles are EL 12 and when you add in the 8 (?) little flame brothers the EL only goes up by (just under) 1. I suppose its true that the nobles are the bastards and the flamebrothers just the extra kick when you are down! Still, using the advance knowledge and fire protection spells my party of 6th-7th level just took them down, as I said. This means that EL 13 is about right because the party needed advance knowledge to win. As for cone of cold, we don't have that yet due to too much magic item crafting draining our xp...

    In the crpg, can you get your other PCs to stand within the protection of the globe of invulnerability? If so, I should probably put the major globe on my wish list...
     
  10. TimSmith

    TimSmith Established Member

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    Agreed, but ToEE is based off the 1st edition D&D adventure, so the EL's are not balanced for 3rd edition, particularly the numbers of monsters.
     
  11. Pygon

    Pygon Member

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    I was actually referring to the elders in the Fire Node, there's like 6 of them at the far east (haven't been there yet in 4.0.0, so maybe I'm speaking out of context).

    As for protecting my party with a globe, yes they all fit in the effect nicely (although druid and ranger animal companions will not live long, as they don't exactly do as they are told, from my previous experience - that is, unless another fine addition to 4.0.0 has been made that I haven't seen yet). It's kind of freaky being within the protection and seeing 6 fireballs per round explode around me.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  12. Pygon

    Pygon Member

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    I understand that not all the encounters will line up quite right, but as an example, look at the ogre in the moathouse. In the paper module, it's just a regular ogre, maybe with a few more hp. In TOEE, he has 60+ hit points and a barbarian level. So some things have definitely been beefed up, some a little overboard (the fire elders instead of regular salamanders, ogre chiefs, etc.). But I won't beat that dead horse. The game's replayability would probably be less if the encounters were so easy with foreknowledge. I just wish there weren't so many encounters were you lose a PC if the boss manages to get full swings in.

    Frankly, I usually find myself just skipping past the fire and water temples, unless I really want to test a fun party build that was doing very well up to that point.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  13. TimSmith

    TimSmith Established Member

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    Eek! I haven't been to the nodes yet. I intend to go there with this party, but my only previous party won the game without visiting them and then i had a year or so break from the game (young kids and real life). Thanks for the info on the globe. Given what you have just told me ("Pelor speaks to me in a dream, comrades" :thumbsup: ) I think the globe is a must have. Although I guess the fire resistance spells will be beefier at that level, too...
     
  14. Kalshane

    Kalshane Local Rules Geek

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    In 5.0 the Salamanders are true Nobles instead of the mish-mash they were previously. I tried it both ways, and making them regular Salamanders made the fight in the Fire Temple way too easy. I did abstain from giving the Nobles their Dispel Magic ability, though, as that would be pretty ruthless. "Hah, we are ready for you fireballing bastards. Fear our protection spells. *poof* Oh, crap..."
     
  15. TimSmith

    TimSmith Established Member

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    Well, can't argue with any of that. I play with the max hit point mod for that very reason and I still reckon I need to min/max my AC (which basically needs the crafting feats). EVEN THIS is not enough in some areas (such as the water temple/fire temple/ogre chief room) and these areas need cunning solutions such as battlefield control spells(ogre chief), fire resistance spells (fire temple) and fog cloud to make the juggernaut miss with its reach attacks whilst its going for PCs dancing around back and forth in front of it (water temple).
     
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