Are combats a bit tougher with Co8?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nilgar, Oct 31, 2020.

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  1. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    I wondered if combats was a bit tougher with Co8 Standard. At first play after a decade and more, in first dungeon I defeated at first try, the first leader, and the ogre without any death but multiple fallen, but then screwed up in many zombies area with a too aggressive play.

    Past it I started used Co8 and had the feeling characters was more prone to death, and combats was a bit tougher.

    So is there any significant difference? Death rule seems the same, so it's not the point. Another aspect is with Co8 I forgot buy healing potions and it changes a lot, but have fixed that.

    So now I wonder, is there a difference with Co8 or is it because I used Elmo and not anymore with Co8?

    EDIT:
    Mmm I could have been a bit lazy in my party creation on this current play. In first dungeon, I tried do the combat which probably the last of this dungeon, and I never ever hit a Priest, but also I suppose party level 2 is short for this combat.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
  2. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    In the original game, the gnolls in the Moathouse had damage reduction for some reason. That made that fight VERY hard.
     
  3. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Generally yes.
    Co8 has better AI scripting (e.g. Lubash now uses his Rage ability, archers ready vs spell and take 5ft steps), casters will use spells more sensibly, and there are various scripting changes that can make the combats harder (such as NPC prebuffing, reactive Moathouse/Temple, and nearby enemies joining fights).
    However, on the flipside, in vanilla your party tended to be weaker.
     
  4. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    I kipped this one and regretted few after with the consequence, it's weird I forgot such sort of stuff.

    So not really or in special cases. I quoted spiders casting web, and Barbarian leader rushing to mage but even in vanilla he was buffing before jump in. But this don't explain it, for both the Ogre and the Barbarian leader. The cause of the difference was more luck or Elmo or both.
     
  5. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Elmo definitely makes a big difference, he's higher level and has good gear.
     
  6. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    Yeah Elmo plus some weird luck in combat against ogre because I had multiple fallen and no death in first play, after one ogre hit was one death. Perhaps not for Elmo but multiple fallen low level was weird compared to later plays.
     
  7. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    Mmm I suspect the Ogre in first dungeon has a different AI and then is quite more prone to kill with Co8.

    I gave one more try with one more party attempt, this time rolled instead of point buy, so at least had better start stats. But it didn't look to be the real point.

    For sure get Elmo helps, he even endured an attack but still hard some life. But it's not just the point, with vanilla the Ogre tends use an attack with 2 hits each on a different target if he can, he doesn't attempt kill to death a character if he can attack another character.

    In Co8 kill to death a character seems be a priority goal, I suspect the Ogre also prefers use a more powerful attack instead of two attacks, this generating easily some death.

    The result is that probably the Ogre Co8 is killing to death much more. With 4 or even 5 tries with Co8 (2 death each time) and 3 with vanilla (no death each time), it gives suspicion, but not more, particularly because I always had Elmo in vanilla and never with Co8.
     
  8. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    The trick I found to the ogre was to sneak in the back way, and shoot him to death from where he couldn't reach me.
     
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    The Ogre has its strategy as a Barbarian (tumbler no ranged) which opens with Rage then straight into Coup de Grace and Target / Attack Threatened, which means it fights to the death. I don't have a vanilla install to compare to but it was that way for Co8 4.0 so I suspect it is original (the combat tweaks, Reactive mods etc came later).
     
  10. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    Rage? I don't think the Ogre use rage action. Fight to the death or fight to kill?

    In last vanilla try I cast at least 3 sleep and none worked against him. Grease did in an older try, but manage it for the party was tough and it brought more negative than positive.

    This combat isn't mandatory, so I suppose at level 2 it can be skipped in Co8.
     
  11. florian1

    florian1 Established Member

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    Sleep won't work, because the Ogre has too many hit dice (sleep spell can only affect 4 HD of enemies). Tasha's Hideous Laughter is the go to spell against tough opponents.
     
  12. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Sorry, that would be kill - I meant to death as in the party member's death. It's a given that its to his own death too - monsters don't tend to surrender or flee in ToEE.

    Anyway, I checked protos.tab from patch 2 - downloaded dat extractor and everything - and yes, he was originally set to 'Flanker', so Co8 has apparently changed it. There you go.
     
  13. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    Ha yes, that's obvious. It's something I regret a bit, to not have details of enemies. But for sure check it often would be heavy, and it's clear I could have guess it.

    At level 2 I was close to take THL but thought I would take it later because 1 round pause was looking short, and I wasn't sure of the saving throw if there's any. But yeah 1 round for this case would be good.
    Flanker? Looks weird. Previous version had a logic, down 2 enemies is better for the ogre than kill one. But as I wrote, in case of too low level this combat can be delayed.
     
  14. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    Still first dungeon, combat with Lareth, without Co8 there's no Lareth that makes a huge difference. I saw he is level 5, could be part of reason, I could never hit him even once.

    But I wonder if it's just that, with the ToEE play I charmed one of the Sargeant and he was level 2. I can't be totally certain but I think that it's once more a combat quite tougher with Co8. I did it at level 3 with ToEE, and with the two level 4 companions, still I 'm almost sure that ToEE version is quite more playable at party level 2 or at least party level 3, at least for a non D&D expert.
     
  15. Nilgar

    Nilgar Member

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    Mmm just did this combat, party level 3, 2 companions level 4, the leader is dangerous and take down my fighter at some point (he was only using total defense, but I also screw up because of not seeing where was a door or not really if Barkskin is close range and I should have cast it before.

    So 1 down not even dead and brought back before end of combat, the only point I noticed is it was borderline impossible to make piercing damages, but Bludgeoning and Slashing damages was looking fine, the combat didn't last long, chance to hit was pretty good.

    The Co8 version was looking a lot tougher, but ok no direct comparison with same party.
     
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