A few small fixes and changes

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by mwnn, Jan 13, 2012.

Remove all ads!
  1. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    A few small issues that I've noticed whilst playing through v7 with a very average point buy party of 5 + Elmo.

    Welkwood Bog (Level 1-2), The Lareth Moathouse fight + ambush (Level 2-4) and Hickory Branch (Level 4-6) have all been very interesting thus far. Lots of nice subtle and big changes noticed over v550.

    I'm just at the point where I can start basic enchanting/making wondrous items. I probably should've taken on Hickory Branch after Nulb in retrospect. The Dire Wolves (+others) and Ogre Shaman hit hard - AC 23 on my fighters wasn't enough.

    I chose to take the risk of resting. Does Survival / Spot / Listen affect the chances of resting in a dangerous area?

    Lord Hungous and Co - weren't quite as difficult when webbed (x2) and silenced. Strangely I don't believe he even tried escaping from the Web. Decimated my party when I didn't win initiative though ;)

    Give him a Freedom of Movement Ring / Cape if you want to be really sadistic.

    The fight with his Sergeants outside the cave was a simple affair by comparison.


    Stealing Farmers

    You shouldn't be able to confront Otello about stealing until after you've received the “Stealing Farmers” quest from Filliken - after solving the “Cupid’s Arrow” quest.

    Should you confront him before - Otello will stop stealing - whilst Filliken will later mention he’s being stolen from. The quest is still solved normally though.

    Maybe if Otello only appears at night once you acquire the quest?


    Black Jay’s Dead Sheep

    Could this quest be offered only after you’ve returned his wife’s wedding ring?

    Black Jay would continue to be anti-social until the point where the ring is returned.

    The “How’s your wife, Jay” line which initiates this quest - is an odd opening statement to make as you’ve never found out his marital status.

    Not so after returning the ring.


    Agent Revealed / Traders Revealed / The Traders’ Courier

    Option 1 - the perfect scenario


    • Force Jayfie to reveal why he’s altering the castle orders then claim the bribe from the Traders (Money, “Traders Revealed” quest)

    • You can then get the Courier to confess and claim the second bribe (Money or Magic Shortsword, “The Traders’ Courier” quest)

    Option 2 - the bugged scenario

    • Force Jayfie to reveal why he’s altering the castle orders

    • Immediately get the Courier to confess

    • You can only claim the bribe from “The Traders Courier“ quest (Money or Magic Shortsword)

    • You lose out on money and don’t get the “Traders Revealed” quest entry


    Agent Revealed / Lareth’s Gear / Assassin Trigger

    Wouldn’t it be better to change the conditions that trigger the Assassin?

    By the time the player has cleaned out the Moathouse - it’s likely that “Black Jay’s Dead Sheep”, “Traders Revealed” and “The Traders Courier” have been solved or partially solved in the case of “Agent Revealed”.

    The point being that it isn’t too difficult to expose Rannos and Gremag early in the game.

    Solving “Agent Revealed” for Burne and Rufus flat out blocks the Assassin encounter as they’ll no longer deal with you. The player misses out on reading the Assassins note and can’t accuse the Traders but can still force a fight with them for the Nulb encounter.

    As the Assassin is triggered by selling Lareth’s item(s) to the Traders - this means the player who’s solved the above quests would have to deliberately sell the item(s) – it seems like an artificial way of triggering this “surprising” encounter.

    I’ll often finish “Agent Revealed” after I’ve sold Lareth’s Boots, blackmailed and double-crossed the Traders.

    If that isn’t enough to annoy them you also gain the Moathouse Cleaner reputation - is it far-fetched to believe the Traders would pass that info on? Even the Courier mentions his report will be interesting.

    As it stands now it seems like a less-competent party has more chance of triggering the Assassin than a party which is more of a threat to the Temple – and that seems illogical.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  2. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Another small irregularity that I've noticed when playing today


    Agent Revealed

    When claiming the reward from...

    • Rufus - his dialog states 100GP

    • Burne - only offers 50GP
    Is this deliberate - is Burne a cheapskate by design?


    Assassin

    Whilst the writing on the note links nicely to the traders - would a crack assassin really leave directions to the Temple of Elemental Evil scribbled down on a crumpled piece of paper?

    I assume this was done to give players a quick route to the Temple?
     
  3. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    7
    Doesn't that make sense though? Burne hired you to do a job - find out who's sabotaging the castle construction. The traders are bribing you to not do that job. Don't you think they'd offer more than you're going to get for completing the job in the first place?

    (And besides, you can always double-cross them and tell Burne anyways.)
     
  4. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your correct in that the Traders should offer more as a bribe than the quest givers - but I suspect that you might be getting Rufus and Rannos mixed up :hug:

    I've attached two pictures.


    *Edit*

    Would it be possible to add a line of dialog to Gremag. When extorted as part of "The Traders Courier" quest - picking the "Where's the Temple" line prevents you from getting the Sword - but still allows you to get the Money.

    I've added another screen shot - showing the issue.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 15, 2012
  5. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    7
    Haha, and here I thought you were the one getting names confused...

    Never mind me then :roll:
     
  6. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    33
    No. Survival affects the proximity of enemies in random encounters though.

    Will fix.

    Good idea - I think we'll try that out. Thanks.

    I suppose this should really be gone over since people have been complaining about it forever, but R&G are a complicated pair so it will take some time and doing.

    I'll ponder this as well.

    Whatever the case may be, I think it'll have to stay that way since their voice audio says that.

    Pretty much.

    Will do.
     
  7. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    My band of 5 point buy adventurers + Elmo have now reached Nulb at Level 4.

    So it's time to post another oddity.

    I've also attached some pictures with the dialog box open.


    Assassination

    You'll want to start by

    • Getting Skole to mention the quest by passing the intimidation check.
    • Pick the "I'll have to think about it and get back to you" line - when it appears. #Screenshot 1 & 2#
    You can now start to confront Lodriss about Skole.

    • Start with "Uh...I have to talk to you about Skole"
    • Then the Diplomacy line "I have some valuable information...."
    • You're then able to show Skole's gem without actually receiving it - as you never accepted the quest. #Screenshot 3#
    • You must then pick the "I'm sorry this is worth at least 100GP" line.
    • Finally the "Skole has paid me to assassinate you" line.
    You can then empty the bar and fight Skole + Guard.

    Incidentally...

    • Passing the conversation check for Lodriss awards a very high amount of experience - 320XP. #Screenshot 4#
    • Likewise killing Skole + Guard awards you even more experience - 400XP. #Screenshot 5#
    Seems to be an awful lot for a relatively simple quest - at least compared to the convoluted Hommlet barn quest.

    I've noticed that shouts from Pirate leader will also appear when the bar has been emptied - quite funny really.



    Hope you don't feel as though I'm :poke:'ing you Gaear :hug:
     

    Attached Files:

  8. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Preston Wetz could do with a bit of tweak too.

    When talking to Preston Wetz for a second time - after accepting the "Tooth" quest - the Diplomacy dialog line that initiates the quest still appears.

    As a comparison - that isn't the case with the Grud Squinteye "Fish" quest - his dialog will change to reflect that you've accepted his quest.

    Just cosmetic stuff really.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Another day and some more oddities that I've stumbled upon...


    Eye Of The Tiger

    This is a strange one - as I've seen the intended conversation fire off correctly - whilst now it won't. I haven't made any changes.

    After winning the fight against Tolub with my dwarven fighter...
    • Tolub is still on the floor - unconscious and prone and paralyzed.
    • The conversation where you're rewarded doesn't trigger and you lose the 100GP and Nulb reputation.

    Should you return to the bar after Tolub has regained consciousness.
    • Tolub doesn't acknowledge that he's already been beaten.
    • Should you fight him (again) - the fight ends after one round - with Tolub winning. (Picture #1 & #2)
    • The quest is now marked as failed.

    Is there a console fix?


    A Pirate's Life For Me

    This isn't related to the botched quest above - I've tested an earlier save.

    You shouldn't have talked to Bertram about him leaving Tolub.

    After losing the fight against Tolub...
    • You can pick the line "What about Bertram"
    • You can pick then Diplomacy line "I don't think he's cut out to be a pirate" (Picture #3)
    • This will solve the quest prematurely - as you've never talked to Bertram to begin with and my Rogue certainly doesn't wish to marry him :p (Picture #4 & #5)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  10. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Retribution

    The quest log doesn't appear to update after the Nulb house ambush.

    • Rannos, Gremag and Co have all been dealt with (Picture #1)
    • There's no option available to inform Burne (Picture #2 - I've added a line)
    • The quest log isn't updated (Picture #3)
    • Your reputation is updated (Picture #4)

    Bribery For Justice / Bribery For Profit

    Solving Bribery for Justice should auto-fail Bribery for Profit - and vice-versa.



    On the subject of Reputations how about one for Hickory Branch. I thought "Orc Obliterator" has a nice rhyme to it.

    It'd be nice if Dala could only loot Gold from the party rather than items. Having your +2 Rapier stolen from right out of my hand seemed a bit bizarre.

    I'm sure that stealing an equipped item would be a higher check than DC 20 - can it be increased? Perhaps drop her dexterity down? Or her skill in Sleight of Hand?

    It doesn't appear to follow the rules at all Sleight of Hand - D20 SRD
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 28, 2012
  11. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    3,721
    Likes Received:
    49
    If I remember right stealing a weapon, (sheathed) is a DC of 50. If she's that good, what the heck is she doing in Nulb?
     
  12. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Onto the Temple at Level 7 with 5 PC + Elmo - Chaotic Neutral party alignment. Lots of +2 items now and some wondrous items to boot. I believe I've done all the pre-Temple content and quests - except the Moathouse Respawn. (I assume that's where I'll now find Swamp Lotus?)

    The Temple looks like the area which has suffered the most either due to time-pressure / Troika's mismanagement / publisher rushed released date. There's also something weird about solving Temple quests when you play a good or neutral party.

    I'm wondering whether to attempt the quests - playing the factions off against each other. Or just chop through it like a turn-based Diablo - I imagine that it might get dull with all the fodder encounters.


    Outer Temple / Temple Entrance

    What appears to be a useless area on the left side - is there any point in keeping the portal that leads to this area?

    Should the fog of war on the Outer Temple Maps and Temple Entrance be removed - there aren't any combat encounters.


    Dungeon Level 1

    Free Jenna / Elysin

    There's a few odd combinations with this one...

    You'll want to talk to Jenna / Elysin
    • Pick the line "I'm here to free you"
    • Then the "Hold on I can't release the orcs line" and end dialog.
    • Talk to the Orcs and then free the prisoners.
    • Talk to Jenna / Elysin - and you can only pick the "Run along now" line.
    • Losing out on the Verboblonc / Nulb stories they tell.
    • The two quest log entries also won't be marked as solved.
    Likewise...
    • Talk to Elysin and release the prisoners - you can hear her Nulb story but not Jenna's Verboblonc story.
    Finally...

    Talk to Jenna and release the prisoners, you can either pick:
    • "I suggest you get moving at once" - missing out on the Verboblonc and Nulb story
    Or pick
    • "I'm afraid I can't escort you to Verboblonc" - getting her request for gold - but missing out on the Nulb story.

    Additionally
    • You can set the prisoners free without fighting Turnkey - he doesn't appear to care that you've released his captives :p


    Wonnilon (Gnome) / Holding Cells

    Opening the cell doors doesn't appear to reliably provoke the Bugbear guards - if the zombies leave their cell however - they will fight on the zombies side.

    Fighting the zombies in the three holding cells (without provoking the Bugbears) appears to provoke Romag (high priest) or Turnkey (torturer).

    Not fighting the zombies or bugbears but releasing Wonnilon doesn't appear to provoke anyone.

    Would it be better to place Wonnilon's chest somewhere else - his dialog mentions his gear being in a "secret corridor next door".

    I've also seen a strange instance where Wonnilon's dialog appears to repeat itself after he reaches his hideout (ie he's still gagged). This appears to be random (???) as I've also seen it work as intended (Picture #1)

    Finally when talking to Wonnilon for the first time - giving him his missing equipment as he first mentions this quest - will stop him from moving to the hideout (he stays in his cell) (Picture #2)


    Miscellaneous

    • There's a vapor rat just below the skeleton area - which stays neutral - unlike the Dire rats.
    • Should the priests react to having those chests near the altar looted?
    • Should Romag react to having his chest looted?
    • Should the Magic Oitment (from altar chest) be identifiable with Read Magic / Helm Of - instead of Identify - as it's a potion?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  13. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    33
    No problem ... you're detailed reporting is very helpful. :thumbsup:

    Fixed.

    Fixed.

    Fixed.

    That's probably actually for completing the Assassination quest, which apparently you can do via the avenue you outlined above. (So you can complete it through Skole or Lodriss.)

    Skole's a level 5 fighter and his goon level 6. :shrug:

    Fixed.

    Sadly that whole thing is a hardcoded routine. It's been fiddled with in various scripting ways over time but never fixed entirely. It's just fundamentally bugged ... makes we wonder if we shouldn't just scrap it and/or replace it with some other quest or plot with Tolub.

    Fixed.

    You're getting your quests mixed up. Retribution is the quest where you get sent by Burne to investigate the traders after they send the assassin after you, so no, it won't get updated with the Nulb saga.

    Incidentally, there are lines in Burne's dialog where you can report the events of the Nulb ambush, but another flag snafu was blocking them. Now fixed.

    Maybe if they were formally accepted ... getting the stash mentioned to you by Sammy and then narcing him out to Otis shouldn't make you botch Sammy's quest I don't think, for example.

    Done!

    Wait til you see her put on your plate mail. ;)

    Apparently the 'steal from' function is hardcoded.
     
  14. mwnn

    mwnn Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Be a shame to scrap it - as it fits the bar theme.

    Are the scripting functions available that would let you rewrite it from scratch? (under a new name/quest if need be)

    Perhaps if a third character (ie "referee") was introduced - you could claim the reward there - if Tolub gets knocked out and paralyzed?

    My speculating on the problem is no doubt easier than the actual fixing of it :yes:

    As the Retribution quest didn't resolve when I confronted the traders in their shop (ie they escaped) - and Burne had no new dialog options...

    ...I just assumed that the quest would finally resolve when I got to deal out the aforementioned retribution in Nulb.

    Always found it odd that you can inform Burne of the Castle plans and the Assassin but not the fact that they work for the Temple.

    Even unintentional fixes are welcome though ;)

    I suppose that's true - it does leave a quest that cannot be resolved in the log though.


    I'm carrying on into Temple Dungeon Lvl 2 - with even more irregularities - including a mace that you can continue to gamble for - after already winning it!

    I like to save the game before I do anything pivotal and try out all these odd combinations - scribbling them down on a piece of paper.

    With all your work - I'd say the game (or what I've seen of it!) is virtually a bug-free (and greatly improved) experience - I never have tried an evil party though.

    My small list of fixes and changes is distinctly bigger :evilgrin:
     
  15. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    33
    Actually this (and the way you're goinga bout it) is a welcome thing. Most of these problems and irregularities have been with ToEE since its inception, but they've never been a real priority. (Our attitude has admittedly been, to some extent, "stupid vanilla," because a lot of the vanilla interaction was seemingly not well tested and refined.)

    If we have an attention-to-detail person playing it through and saying exactly what's wrong and where it goes wrong, that makes fxing it easier. And a lot of it needs fixing.

    I used to suspect that a lot of this needed a total re-write, but with your detailed reporting I'm finding that it's usually just the lack of a qualifier here and there that's goofing it up. So ... carry on. :thumbsup:
     
Our Host!