3.5 Touch spells

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Basil the Timid, May 31, 2008.

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  1. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    I wish the so-called Roll counter actually showed what the die roll was - then I wouldn't have to post this question.

    I would like to know how melee touch spells work: based on strength or dexterity? What about ranged touch spells? I believe 3.5 changed the latter to Dex, but not for the former.

    How does Chill Touch work with, say, Flurry of Blows? In PnP, it should be once per round per caster level. Does ToEE combine the damage of the unarmed strike and the spell and requires a proper melee attack (Touch insufficient)?

    Assuming that Strength still is required for melee touch spells, is Weapon Finesse or decent strength "necessary" for touchy spell-casters?


    Thanks, oh wise ones.
     
  2. nyarlathotep

    nyarlathotep Merry Murder Maniac

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    Well, most touch ac's are so low that one barely needs a combat orientated feat. But when you do a touch spell, you only have one attack that round, so it's not compatible with flurry
     
  3. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Can that one touch attack stack with Unarmed Strike damage?
     
  4. Tyrannar

    Tyrannar Wanderer in the dark

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    In D'n'D yes you can, if u attack someone with your unarmed attack against his AC and hit you deal unarmed dmg and target is touched. But if u miss then the spell has failed, unless the spell description says otherwise, like u hold the charge for few turns and then it is discharged.
     
  5. Greylan

    Greylan Established Member

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    I just tested it with a monk/sor Lawful Good vignette and the levelup console command, and no matter how I tried, I couldn't get a touch attack to discharge with an unarmed strike. I was able to select Full Attack and use the discharge as part of a flurry, but unfortunately not both at once.
     
  6. Shadowblade2

    Shadowblade2 Established Member

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    How do you use those console commands? I'm playing on an Intel PC, rather than an X-Box or something. Can I use the console too? Where can I find a list of commands?


    Cheers!

    Mike
     
  7. Tyrannar

    Tyrannar Wanderer in the dark

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  8. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    So, according to Greylan, I can cast a touch spell (hopefully Chill Touch) and then make a touch attack (as per 3.x rules). Then, on successive rounds, I must choose Flurry option and score a regular melee hit for the spell to take effect.

    Wasn't there some weirdness with Chill Touch recorded here? Resolved?

    Thanks for the input.
     
  9. Greylan

    Greylan Established Member

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    Not quite -- while I was able to use the "discharge touch attack" as part of my flurry of blows, it would unfortunately only discharge the touch attack, and not make a regular unarmed strike as well. :( No matter what I did with the radial option, I was unable to get both to go off at the same time.


    Edit: To get into the console, type shit+~ while in-game. From there you'll need to type "from co8 import*" then type "levelup" -- without the quotations, of course. That should allow you to test quite a bit. Lawful Good vignette is good testing ground for this kind of thing because you have 3 enemies to fight right away. :)
     
  10. Shadowblade2

    Shadowblade2 Established Member

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    Thanks, i found the sticky thread after I posted!

    I still don't quite get ranged touch attacks, but I think it requires a spell that works like a ray and the combat odds are calculated like a melee touch, so would use STR - so you need to score a hit against their armour and DEX bonus AND they get a saving throw. In 2E a ray just worked and they got a save to avoid it.

    A ranged spell like Acid Arrow works like a missile, so requires a missile attack as you actually throw it and gets a DEX bonus. You get a penalty for firing into melee, so having Point Blank and Precise Shot helps not just a Wizard's crossbow attack bonus but also his ranged missile spell attacks.


    ~
     
  11. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    And now, spellcasters with levels of Rogue. I tried to sneak attack a flatfooted orc with a Ray of Frost - nada besides 1d3 damage. I also planned to do this with Chill Touch, but haven't had the opportunity present itself yet.

    Anyone have luck with this?
     
  12. nyarlathotep

    nyarlathotep Merry Murder Maniac

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    Don't forget that you've got to be within 30ft of your target to be able to do sneak attacks with a ranged weapon.
     
  13. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Of course I know about the 30ft rule. It sure looked like she was in range.
    Are you saying that sneak attack DOES work with Rays/Touch?
    Is it possible to get critical hits on 20s?
    Is there Improved Critical (ray)?
     
  14. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I believe 'weapon focus (ray)' and its ilk do NOT work, unfortunately. So I am told, so I have never wasted my time on a feat that I don't think works, but then I have never verified it.

    Beyond that, is it RAW that they should do sneak attacks etc? I don't have a clue, but it strikes me that a 0 level spell shouldn't suddenly deal massive damage because the caster has several levels of rogue: that doesn't make sense to me. Sure, a canny and accurate rogue could go for the eyes or some other vulnerable point, but if a high level caster only gets 1d3 out of it, I don't see why a high level rogue who may be a novice spellcaster should turn the spell into a killer. Thats just me.

    "Petrificus totalus - crotch!" :zap:
     
  15. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Ah, yes indeed, Rays and Touch spells are targetted and therefore can deal precision damage. SRD RAW:
    If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
    A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
    Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time....
    *N.B. There is no mention of weapon.

    Sneak attacks and critical hits are often refered to as precision-based damage since they both have the same restrictions (e.g. creature type). Members of the various D&D forums have interpreted the meaning of sneak attacks to include ray and touch spells. Thus, no book has created a feat for applying sneak attack damage to attack-roll spells because no feat is necessary.

    It is all made clear in Complete Arcane pp. 85-86

    Also, Complete Arcane states that the following feats may be applied to "weaponlike spells" (i.e. any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects):
    Improved Critical
    Improved Unarmed Strike (discussed above in this thread)
    Point Blank Shot (I don't think it works)
    Precise Shot
    Stunning Fist
    Weapon Finesse
    Weapon Focus (ranged spells - incl. rays and orbs - or touch spells)

    If you think you are smelling the cheese of high level rogues taking a level of sorceror to get a touch attack that can deal sneak attack damage, remember that there are benefits AND costs to multi-classing. How much does a rogue gain when multiclassing to Fighter-type? How useful is a Ray of Frost to a 9th level Rogue when his opponents have Spell and/or Energy Resistance which his caster level 1 spell must penetrate? ad nauseum. ad infinitum.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
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