North Korea is threatening nuclear war again

Well, there is some truth in my comments about brainwashing, they are only HALF humorous.
But I "defend North Korea" here mostly because I do not believe they support world-wide terrorist organisations. Nor do I believe there should be sanctions against North Korea. (Except maybe forbidding Nuclear Materials and weapons trade.)
And also because without someone defending them, there will be no discussion.
And if there will be no discussion, how will I know other opinions (and what facts support them), how will I see if my opinion better reflects the reality, and if not, how will I change my opinion to the better?

[And I would not call my position here "defending North Korea", but rather "opposing harsh actions against North Korea"]

I am ready for that hugging circle. :hug:

Interesting, when some people in Internet do not like what I say, they call me by my real name!
Seriously, we can not justify sanctions which harm commoners with vile actions of their government (and as was said, no solid facts of NK government international vileness were presented), if we do, what will be the first countries to be blockaded? Unfortunately, Russia and USA.

Interestingly, Cuba's people have one of the best health care systems in the world. That is because their state redirects money from unneeded luxuries to vital things.
Actually, NK's state does the same, but for them* weaponry and military are vital.
(*more for the state than for the people, but still...)

About USSR breakdown you may be right. I, personally, think, that there were some faults in IMPLEMENTATION of the system, which may be traced to Stalin's time, but the main responsibility is on those you named. The Second World War did not help either.

And...

I am not a communist.

 

Hugs Sergio Morozov :hug:

 

@Sergio Morozov

You can call sanctions a form of warfare strategy, unconventional but a clearly effective one, and thus heavily utilized. It allows a country to hurt another's military infrastructure without armed conflict, aiming to deescalate the probability of failed strategic deterrence. Sanctioning strategy are much more preferred by most people of the modern world than acts of violence (after having understood better what violence really means to humanity in humanity's previous massive wars), precisely for its less potential for bloodshed, something NK is very keen to do whenever it gained a momentary capability to do so, as demonstrated in its recent killing of 46 South Korean sailors aboard the sunk corvette Cheonan last March.

Before that incident, in 2002, when ROK was reveling in the full glory of the World Cup 2002 that it was hosting, two gunboats of NK initiated a battle with a Chamsuri class PKM 357 patrolling the vicinity of NLL, and mercilessly sunk it, killing 6 ROK sailors and wounding dozens of others with debilitating injuries in the process. Other ROKN patrol ships were hurriedly deployed in the area to retaliate against the tandem of ships, and killed 13 NKs, but they spared the ships so that they could return to base with the wounded and allow others a greater chance to live. You could say that NK caused those whole chain of events in a time of peace and celebration and time of relative support for the prosperity of the NK regime via Sunshine Policy just to show what kind of ungrateful asshats they are, and incidentally, you can observe here that ROK exercised great caution and restraint in setting its Rules of Engagement in a way it favors the survival of those poor NK militarymen who fight a war that should not be theirs, despite the fact that ROK could easily attain a military power that's more than 40 times NK's through its debt-free and energetic, superior economy. ROK wishes that NK survive, and it also wishes that NK will think the same of ROK. 'Peace' is ROK's foremost foreign policy with regard to North Korea, and sanctions are as far as it is willing to go as a strategy in war.

Economic sanctions help prevent war sparking up between the Koreas by keeping the belligerent arms of NK maimed. ROK does not want a dangerous military conflict to happen with its northern neighbor for reasons that benefit all the people of the world, and neither do the most of the rest of the world (including Russia) want it happening, and they - the collective leadership of the international community, including those of 'non-West' powers such as China and Russia - choose to carry out their intent and best wishes via means of sanctions. While people of NK will surely suffer from the damage to NK's economy, prevention of armed escalation in world's most heavily militarized border still remains the topmost priority for world's leadership in attaining greater world stability and peace, so NK people's suffering unfortunately have to remain a necessary evil.

You should also know that ROK and its allies contribute large amount of humanitarian aid to the people of NK in an unrequited act of support despite the sanctions to reduce their burden somewhat in these unending days of pain and hardship reminiscent of the old days of Cold War. ROK knows that it's delivering suffering to NK, and it makes sure that its allies know the same, and there's no other group of people who wish that North Koreans - who are of the same blood and heritage as the South Koreans - will one day be freed from the grasp of their tyrants and finally gain their well-deserved solace from a life that's the very example of Living Hell itself, more than the ROK government. It's the NK government who refuses to give the North Korean people their dues by holding onto their dictatoral power which will surely be robbed of them if NK is assimilated into South Korean democracy, which they do not want happening. NK government's refusal to abandon dictatorship is the precise cause of all these geopolitical nausea and sadness in East Asia, and sanctions are only a secondary effect. You can only be glad that things ended at mere implementation of sanctions and nothing worse.

 

More to the point, there are NO Communist countries. Communism is just a scam used by the usual power monkeys to help keep their people in line. It's just a cover for the usual incompetence and corruption.

The most successful socialist nation in the world is probably the United States. A righteous democracy is necessarily going to incorprate socialist elements.

While the economic blockade of Cuba can't possibly be helping that nation's economy, note that all of the Caribean nations are poor. Any economic initiatives in Cuba are necessarily under the control of the Castros and their cronies. These people aren't in control because they are good businessmen or economic geniuses. It is because they have guns. Another revolution subverted for the benefit of a few.

"Won't get fooled again!"

 

Yes, the hugging circle is what we need to prevent nuclear war!
Hugs Scryler :hug:

If all Caribbean nations are poor, it is not the fault of Castro and his "cronies" that Cuba is poor, so I can not see why do you call their revolution "subverted".

I must again stress that people of Cuba have one of the BEST healthcare systems in the world despite their country is "poor'. This is determined by objective set of indicators like newborn death rate etc. (You can probably check that on some UN or WHO site.)
You have stated yourself that other Caribbean nations are poor, and objective data shows that they have usual for such countries healthcare systems (bad).
So, Revolution gave Cuba's people health and long lives* (on level higher than in USA, and approximately equal to Israel), if not riches.
Why do you say it benefits only few? It benefits MOST of them I think.
Of course, if we consider long and healthy life a burden and a curse... :dead:

*actually, if they lived long and were healthy BEFORE the revolution too, then I am wrong, but it is unlikely.

 

1. All Caribbean nations are poor. Only one is under economic blockade.

2. Most of the resistance to the Batista regime was not under Castro, nor even Communist. After the revolution, none of those parties had any power. Just Castro and his cronies.

You would also be wrong if the figures are false. Are people outside Havana truthfully included in these figures?

But the U.S. news media support your assertions. And they aren't ALWAYS completely full of shit.

 

Hugs GuardianAngel82 :hug:

 

Well for a mathematician to make a blanket statement
"All Caribbean nations are poor. Only one is under economic blockade."

He must have some facts and figures to back it up.

Here are the percentages of the population living below the povertyline the figures are provided by the CIA which for some reason does not list Cuba.
Haiti 80 (probably more like 99 at the mo.)
Dom. Rep 42
Grenada 32
Dominica 30
Trinidad and Tobago 17
Costa Rica 16
Russia 16
Jamacia 15
USA 12
Canada 11
Bahamas 9


As the populations of Russia and the US dwarf that of the Caribbean countries there must be considerably more people living below the povertyline there.

The povertyline is only a crude comparrison of course and will vary depending on the criteria used to set it.

 

That's freaking sweet. I'm poor pretty much everywhere in the world except for a few countries. I bet I could live like a squillionaire in Haiti with my $10 bucks! I could blow a couple of cents and buy everyone in the country a sandwich, chips and a drink for the day! You could pick me out pretty quickly as the millionaire because I would be the one wearing socks. What I am still doing here?! King of the beggars! This pleases me. Don't even get me started with Ethiopia.

 

How country is 'poor' might be better indicated by HDI (Human Development Index). HDI does make consideration of factors such as income inequality which affect the relative poverty of the population. It also factor in quality of health care, quality of education, mortality rate and life expectancy etc that might not be represented by poverty alone. Imho a better description to use to describe the socioeconomic state of most Caribbean countries is 'severely to mildly underprivileged' rather than simply 'poor'.

HDI of Caribbean countries:

Puerto Rico (US Commonwealth) - 0.942
Martinique (French overseas region) - 0.929
Guadeloupe (French overseas region) - 0.912
Barbados (UK Commonwealth) - 0.903
Antigua and Barbuda (UK Commonwealth) - 0.868
Cuba - 0.863
Bahamas (UK Commonwealth) - 0.856
Mexico - 0.854
Costa Rica - 0.854
Venezuela - 0.844
Panama - 0.840
Trinidad and Tobago - 0.837
Saint Kitts and Nevis (UK Commonwealth) - 0.825
Saint Lucia (UK Commonwealth) - 0.821
Dominica - 0.814
Grenada - 0.813
Colombia - 0.807
Dom. Rep - 0.777
Belize (UK Commonwealth) - 0.772
Jamaica (UK Commonwealth) - 0.766
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (UK Commonwealth) - 0.761
Guyana - 0.729
Honduras - 0.732
Nicaragua - 0.699
Haiti - 0.532

Average HDI of the Caribbean region: 0.814

Comparison countries:
Russia - 0.817
ROK - 0.937
Canada - 0.966
USA - 0.956

note: most developing countries' development gap compared to developed countries is 0.003~0.007 a year. 10 years would represent any value between 0.030 and 0.070.

One interesting thing to note here is that, statistically most Caribbean countries that are part of the territory or Commonwealth of a major developed country (the US, UK or France) has a higher standard of living than their non-colony neighbors, although there are some failure prodigies like Belize and Jamaica. Stable democracy and capitalism of Western countries often had a beneficial effect on improving the life of the people of countries which would supposedly be 'poor' if they were completely ruled by an indigenous government, although the trend is far from being universal.

Another interesting example to observe is that despite how Bahamas enjoys (or enjoyed) better economic prosperity than ROK did throughout its modern history, as indicated by its perpetually higher gdp per capita, its HDI still remains far below the HDI of ROK, by a development gap of almost decades. ROK people might be 'poorer' by an inch or two in purely the amount of money they have, but they can attain a much higher and modern standard of living in leaps of meters.

 

Ditto. That's exactly what I was going to say. Also, aren't the colors used all a part of the jamaican flag? Is there a link between the HDI of the carribean and rastafarianism? Magic eight ball says...for sure. Everyone is bogartting spleefs!

 

Hugs Sergeo. :hug:

Sergeo, you don't have to suppress your opinions around me. Just express your viewpoints. If we agreed with each other on every point there would no reason to have any discussions.

 

Looking at he list that includes Cuba, I must solemnly and humbly withdraw my assertion all Caribbean nations are poor. And I must note that Cuba is near the top of that list.

Clearly my viewpoints on that topic are, at best, outdated. When I visited the Caribbean 14 years ago, the areas outside the tourist areas were clearly not thriving economically. But I may have been visying the slum areas.

Jamaica was still one of my favorite places to visit.

 

Yes. The only countries who are wealthier than Cuba in the Caribbean are those who have the full support of world's most powerful democratic countries. Cuba is one of the most well-developed developing countries in the world, perhaps too developed to be called third-world now. It beats Russia in level of development, almost on par with Poland. In fact you can call it the most successful and thriving autocratic state on this planet aside from oil-rich pseudo-theocracies in the Middle East.

Sadly that also exhibits what kind of greater failure North Korea really is, where a simple lack of food - famine - still remain the single largest source of death in North Korea in its recent history. Dictatorship or Communist or sanctions or no, the regime is simply full of idiots from whose idiocy the South Koreans made it a fervent duty to free their northern brethren. As I've said few posts back, ROK chooses economic means over war to achieve its interest, one of saving their own kin.

Sanctions on their own cannot kill people of another country. What really kills those people is the sanctioned country's poorly made reactive judgment. North Korea knew its sanctioned economy could not keep up with its military aspiration, yet it still continued its military buildup, spending 25% of its GDP as military budget, the highest figure anywhere in the world. Cuba spends only 4%. Cuba is certainly a prosperous country relative to most of the world, but it's militarily weak and cannot wage war, thus no longer a threat to the security of countries like the US. All those international sanctions' purpose was to reduce North Korea's military capability the same, as it did on countries like Cuba and Iran, which would have worked as it was designed to if only the North Korean regime acted less stupidly as it should have. Instead of reducing military spending for the economy to survive, they simply extorted more productivity from its people and reciprocated with more suffering to fuel its military force for a completely damned set of purposes, one of which is to bring suffering to the South Koreans too, as if the suffering of their own northern countrymen isn't already enough.