Should St. Cuthbert and Iuz cast spells?

Should St. Cuthbert and Iuz cast spells?

Currently they don't even though they probably should... they both have tons of spell caster levels but their AI didn't support it.

I think it would pretty much be impossible to kill them if they actually got spells.

What do people think?

- Livonya

 

well i think it should be as in the original game. if Iuz is brought in then within 1 round St Cuthbert shows up to face him, then the vanish together to finish thier fight, they do away from the sight of mortals. before they leave they fix up thier followers, Iuz raises all his slain leaders and gives all a full heal and Cuthbert does the same for the party so everyone starts out at full power. you were never suppose to fight either as it means automatic death to face a demigod or lesser god at the meager levels in this game. this game was originally made only to go upto 8th level and a red dragon in the node was about as big a challenge you were suppose to meet

 

I think St Cuthbert and Iuz should be unkillable (is that a word?) in TOEE. These are demigods. Mortals at tenth level or less shouldn't be able to kill them off; it just seems, well, insulting to demigodery (is that another word ?)

Demigods should be such that they can avoid such a humiliation. High level characters might have a reasonable chance but a character at tenth level or less, well it just seems so unlikely that if it does happen, one is left feeling that something isn't quite right. That's how I see things. Beings didn't get to be demigods unless they were special, and this means that low level characters/monsters shouldn't be able to just bump them off with a lucky roll, or spell. It's about respect and something deeper. Demigods are not just high level monsters ....

 

I personally think Cuthbert might be easier if he casts spells. What makes him so tough are his around 20 attacks per round. Iuz might be slightly tougher if he cast some spells before he engages in melee. The exception to this however is if they cast heal on themselves -- that would certainly make them tougher.

 

If they have spellcaster levels, then they should by all means use them.

 

In the World of Greyhawk D&D, Iuz is a really wicked and terrible "thing". The first time I played level 4 I was suprised when he, and later, St.Cuthberth appeared. I think deity level intervention at the level of the game is out of place. At level 14+, yeah, maybe ok. I've never played a game or pnp module at those higher levels, so my knowledge is pretty weak. I would like to see Iuz killed and destroyed forever, but that can't happen. Diety level contact with the mortal humans should be extremely rare and under very extreme conditions.

 

They should indeed use spells.
St. Cuthbert is a god, Iuz is a demigod -- there is a big difference. There's a scale used for godlike creatures and it goes like this:
High-level character -> Demigod -> Lesser deity -> Medium deity -> Greater deity.
Iuz is a demigod (which essentially is a slight increase in power, plus immortality and a portfolio, I think), while St. Cuthbert is definitely medium or higher (I forget). This means Iuz should definitely be killable; he is certainly not CR 50 or whatever stupid value is in TOEE. Zeus is like CR 70-100 (I honestly can't remember), considering how far down on the scale Iuz is (Zeus is a greater deity), Iuz should have an approximate total level of 20-30 AT THE MAXIMUM. A level 21 creature is killable by 6 level 14 PCs. It's just tough. There's no reason for him to be "invincible," but he should certainly adequately represent the challenge of killing a demigod.
St. Cuthbert should be invincible, though. He is a medium or greater deity and far beyond the abilities of any character in TOEE.
wizgeorge: The conditions ARE extreme, though. The person Iuz placed in charge of the initiative to free Zuggtmoy is about to die. This person is obviously a) favored and b) powerful. If they are threatened, it's perfectly appropriate for Iuz to intercede -- demigods are not "true" gods in that they are more inclined to "wander" as regular characters do.

 

St Cuthbert is a lesser deity, which he shouldnt even be that since he is a mortal that was rewarded. you shouldnt be able to touch any deity untill 30th lvl and then it should be almost impossible to do. now im not as familar with the newer game but whether you are facing thier avatars or them they would be slightly weaker than facing them on their home plane. remember that a god cant be killed anywhere but thier home plane, so if you fight them here and win at the most all you do is drive them back to thier home plane for time then they come back for you later. this is what they made the Throne of Bloodstone for and those where 100th lvl characters

 

I've never played or ran a high level game that that had deity and demigod involvement, so I'm pretty weak in this area. I still have all the World of Greyhawk modules and stuff. I have the original Deities and Demigods book with Elric and Stormbringer, etc. They are all good reading material, but I think I'll buy the latest books and get up to date. I'm obviously out of my zone in this area so my comments are worthless.

 

lord_graywolfe: I was just going from what I remembered from Deities and Demigods, for the little while that I had it. You evidently have more knowledge on the subject than I, but if a deity shouldn't be touchable until level 30, then shouldn't a crappy demigod like Iuz be a challenge (but still possible) at around level 15?
From what I recall of the avatars, deities gain strength from being on their home plane, rather than "losing" it when they're away. IIRC the avatars get weaker only when there are more than one.

 

Iuz & Cuthbert

Gameplay in the world of Greyhawk was all about roleplaying. A LOT of Gygax modules had involvement from powerful unique creatures of extra-planar origin. Characters in the "Shrine of the Kou-Toans" would find themselves in front of the Sea Mother herself, on her home plane, if they followed a sequence of actions that were easily discovered. YIKES! In T1-4, Iuz had a 90% chance of showing up if a follower called his name in the inner sanctuary. St. Cuthbert had a 90% chance of showing up, too, if good characters were present. These appearances were checked for each round that the criteria were met; Cuthbert would actually arrive slightly later if the good characters followed another diety...Then they went away to sort things out. Of course, neutral or evil persons would have to win, or face the consequences of failure, as no help was forthcoming. Iuz was also to have appeared in demonic form, not old-man form, in this encounter...and the inner sanctum was protected by a "wall of tentacles" which could only be passed by those in possession of the TZGY scarab(s).

Back to the point...

Yes, they should have spells, and spell like abilities, and psionics (if applicable), and applicable magic items to use (Mace of St. Cuthbert; +3 Two Handed Sword). They should not appear automatically, but should be hard as hell to tangle with, let alone defeat (and never killed).

 

I wish I had the time and chance to do a lot of the stuff that is and was around. I just never had the chance to play those higher level modules. I think I missed something.

 

well Kespoosh, Iuz should be able to be beaten by higher level charcters. he shows up in a couple of Greyhawk modules. he was a powerful priest but only had one special ability and originally was listed as what they called a Quasi-diety, which is what your charcters would aspire to when they reached 30th level or higher, but he is only a 16th level cleric/16th level assassin 165 hp and decent MR 65%. cuthbert is much more powerful though and evil parties shouldnt be able to beat him. so both should just disappear from the battle and not be fought at all, just as it was originally writen. they arent in the game for us to fight.

 

........Then why is there an ending for killing Iuz?